personally i think Italians and Portuguese are in a good place right now. Sure they are both a bit weak on land but are both very strong on water. They both are quite diverse in there options though as others have pointed out. The buffs suggested for them here are way too strong. They might need a couple of subtle tweaks but honestly I think they are both fine. Turks is a different story and it’s tricky to see how to solve there problems (chiefly dealing with the archer line) without elite skirm. I don’t think you can add this as it’s so tied to there identity. I don’t think hussar is the problem here turks late game is very strong. Perhaps a slightly cheaper gold cost for the archers and cav archers could be a way. I like the longer lasting gold mines idea too.
For Turks, suggesting Elite Skirm or Genitours is weird to me. I think, for late game arguably Turks have better skirms than civs which lacks both blacksmith upgrades like Celts and Franks.
Elite skirm gives 5 hp +1 pierce armour and a few upgraded bonus damage.
Last Archer Armour upgrades gives +2 pierce armour and Braver gives +1 Range and +1 Attack.
For genitours what happens if Turk player team with Berber player?
Giving Turks Light Cavalry (between Hussars and Cavaliers which is just Steppe Lancer for now) makes going gunpowder more reliable. I usually go for Cavalry Archers with Sipahi.
We are waiting turks buff for a months. italians and portuguese are arguably better than their past situations. The turks is the only civ which need buff immediately
Not really. They are very underwhelming in every land map…
I totally agree, turks need something…
This is actually a very good idea. Their hussars would be like top tier, then.
True. There was a time the Portuguese Arquebus tech was really good and then, they nerfed the Portuguese into oblivion and also added a minimum range for Organ guns. I don’t see any reason for them to have a minimum range in the first place. I think at this rate, it’s better to just give them back their old Arquebus tech that increased projectile speed. It’s only a late imperial tech anyway.
I don’t know whether the Portuguese need squires but I think Shipwright would be nice… it would be even better to nerf the Italians and the Vikings on water, though.
Exactly!
True. Some people unfortunately don’t seem to like this.
That would be funny because for the Italians, they would be 20% cheaper. For the Turks, created 20% faster and with 25% HP
Agreed.
What do you mean by Arquebus fixed? You mean with the projectile speed increase like when the African Kingdoms came out? I totally agree. Organ guns should have their minimum range removed.
Well. Yeah. Would be funny if Demolition ships and Petards counted as Gunpowder units. They would take bonus damage from condotierri but would also get extra HP and creation speed if they’re Turkish, cheaper costs if Italian.
Turks have an excellent late game if you got trade, though.
In forgotten empires organ gun minimum range was added because they were very effective in close combat thanks to 100% accuracy in melee range. And you want the minimum range to get removed?
Korean onager used to have 11 range thanks to their team bonus and unique tech. Now only 10 range. Still more than most onagers. And you want them cheaper?
Organ gun minimum range was added because they were too good in close combat. Why you want it to be removed?
It was meant like that, man. Also, the Portuguese have been nerfed into oblivion. Adding the minimum range only meant that they need to send in halberdiers as well… which they probably did already.
Also, the extra projectiles don’t do a lot by themselves. En masse, we would have MANY such extra projectiles which helped.
I’m pretty sure most of us don’t want any more military buff based on relic count. At first we thought Lithuanians relic bonus would not be that scary since armor and HP are first priority for melee units. But now look at their knights with 2 relics in castle age. Archers primary focus is attack and having extra attack from relic can be broken. There is already an ongoing topic here in this forum people arguing whether archers frame delay should increase to reduce there micro potential or not.
Really agree on Portuguese being a boring/tasteless civ. I proposed their TB changed to / additional effect of mill/lumber camp/mining camp provide +5 pop space since they are the only civ whose TB doesn’t have any effect in 1v1. potentially saving 25 wood + 25 seconds per drop off building in early game can be very useful both in land or water map.
Also I didn’t like increasing Caravel’s cost to keep it at 34 gold. This unit is already a questionable choice over galley line imo .With 10 more gold than galley line now, going for war galley is very very safe option.I think there gold cost should be reduced to 35 or 38 and further to 28 or 30 after discount.
How about 50% cheaper dock tech changed to 30% cheaper TC and dock tech? A direct buff in land maps and a slight nerf in water maps which will keep there overall civ strength at the same level. Another thing is this change can make them a top tier civ in hybrid maps like medi,scandi and
cross aka four lakes.
Wood discount will make them stronger in water maps which we obviously don’t want.
Go to scenario editor. Make 50 elite longboats agains 50 (or even 40) elite carabels.
Carabels is the onlt thing that completely destroys Longboats
And Turtle Ships…
But you don’t start with 40-50 Caravel/Longboat at the start of the game. Also Viking eco is so much better than Portuguese that either Viking player will most likely have 60+ Longboats when Portuguese player have only 40 Caravel or Viking longboats will take the water control before Portuguese player even have 30 Caravel. Not to mention Longboat is way easier to mass and micro.
Caravel is very good when it is massed. The point is does Portuguese have enough potential to go that much into the late game?
That’s a different tale. Yeah, Vikings are a better civ overall, but still caravels are an amazing unit. Portuguese weakness is land, not water.
Portos are a far better water civ than vikings when it comes to imperial and post imperial age
All of them just have bonuses that only kick really in at castle age. Late feudal, even in best case scenario, you will save less than 100 resources on each of these civs which is a joke compared to top tier civs like Chinese, Malians, Vikings and Franks.
They can just throw them something that helps them early like blacksmith costing -50% wood for italians, Turk mining camps costing only 25 wood and Portuguese starting with extra cow or something.
Yes & no. Sometimes UU cost is determined by overall strength of the civ, not by the stats. I think Boyar vs Keshik is the best example. But I’m not completely disagree with you either.
Only after you have 25-30 which will cost you 250-300 more gold. IMO it is very risky and going for war galley is safer. They have same TT unlike longboats. So no extra advantage on massing them earlier even if you have enough resources.
True but personally I want to see them in top 5 water civ. Currently they are in top 10 for sure but whether in top 5 or not is very very arguable.
In 1v1 they’re not among the best, but as pocket in a water map, hell they are. They’re lackluster in early game, and that’s why other civs do better in 1v1 (faster civs)
30% cheaper TC techs is a bit weak, while 30% dock discount is a massive nerf. A couple of comments:
- Probably it would be better: "both TC and dock techs are 33% cheaper and faster to research. This is way more useful on land!
- I like the idea of rebalancing Italians. However it may be easier to act separately to land and water. For instance we may nerf the water discount while adding a land specific buff (e.g., reduced TT or +1PA for archers and skyrms)