Give Burgundians Supplies

One of the big theoretical perks of Burgundians is the ability to do stuff one age lower without sacrificing the economic benefits of the age up. In theory, this would allow them to do some really interesting stuff in feudal age, like massive feudal aggression.

Unfortunately, this is currently hamstrung by the lack of Supplies. Supplies is pretty much the ur-tech for long-term feudal aggression, dramatically reducing the cost of infantry and making them much more viable for people wanting to make significant investments in infantry.

Lacking it more or less undoes any benefit they might get from getting their feudal techs early. Yes, they can collect resources 15% faster, but infantry cost 15 more food so it pretty much becomes a net zero.

Giving them Supplies might make this sort of early-aggression strategy much more viable and make the civ a bit more viable as a whole.

supplies has almost no impact on long term feudal agression, as you rarely see extended m@a play, instead shifting into scouts or archers.

That’s with normal civs, though. Normal civs probably won’t have the resources to invest in supplies in the first place, let alone staying there long enough for it to pay off.

Burgundians can theoretically stay Feudal dramatically longer than other civs, which can make Supplies actually worthwhile. Except the one civ that could potentially benefit from it the most, doesn’t actually get it.

Why would burgundians make supplies anyways, they can just make flemish militia without wasting res to upgrade to champion.

The upgrade path would actually synergize pretty well. You upgrade your M@A in feudal age, maybe upgrade them again for a power spike in castle age, then when you do flemish revolution you’ve got most of the upgrades already.

In the middle of castle age, you can swap into cavalry really easily because all the techs are so cheap, so that’s always an option no matter if you’ve done it yet or not.

Burgundian don’t need supplies, especially since with Burgundian vineyards + relics they can make champs for longer late-game to counter enemy trash.

Their eco bonus being less useful that it could be because the civ would rather go castle age ASAP rather than try and have an extended feudal age is a problem of theirs, but really if you want to go for all-in feudal and you’re ready to do a tech switch you’d be better of going full archers, because if Malian can’t make full m@a work there is no way in hell Burgundian can.

Why would Burgundian make flemish militia anyway, they can just make champions without wasting their whole eco.

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Having supplies would offer the option of staying in feudal age and actually using their eco bonus. They might not always take advantage of that opportunity, but at least they would have it.

Lacking any other significant buffs to their champions besides that trickle of gold, I don’t think it would make them overpowered in the lategame, either. Food is plentiful at that stage of the game anyway, so it’s far more likely that gold will be the chokepoint even with supplies in the mix.

Regardless of the relative value of Flemish Revolution, already having many of the infantry upgrades widens the opportunity for its use. Before they’d likely need to spend time upgrading before they could pop it, whereas with this early feudal aggression strategy, perhaps they could jump straight through to imperial age and go for it, which significantly expands their options.

Then again: for what reason would you want to spend your feudal age spamming m@a? It’s just not a good idea.

But halberdiers already require you to take infantry upgrades, and Burgundian champs work just fine for all the stuff you would ever need a champ to accomplish.
Like really if Burgundian need anything it’s not an infantry tech.

Also, in all honesty, this is a joke right?

Give them -50% food cost on eco upgrades they would be better already. They need an early game buff.

Having the potential to do so is the important thing. They’re the best unit for destroying enemy buildings in feudal too. You have a big eco advantage if you can force your enemy to defend themselves constantly rather than advancing. By constantly being aggressive and pushing feudal age long overdue, you can make the civ bonus essentially be like having 3x that of the celts, or comparable civs. But it requires serious feudal aggression to do that, which they can’t do terribly well at present.

Why would you go for halbs when you know you’ve got a swarm of flemish militia coming shortly on hitting imp?

No joke. Burgundians are a weird civ, gotta play them weird to make them work.

Then play them ‘weird’ I shall.
There are plenty of interesting playstyles, and they definitely aren’t “weak”.

Well, statistically they’re probably the worst civ in the game atm. That doesn’t mean you can’t win with them, but they’re certainly not top-tier.

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I agree they need supplies so they aren’t forced into a mono build and actually have a counter to their counter.

But i don’t think supplies would be enough to justify an extended m@a play. They have no bonuses for the m@a, so they will still get hard countered by archers. You would need to invest too much into your eco to get it the level where you can sustain m@a which reduces the pressure you can give.

One of the reasons goths can do it is because their militia and then m@a are immediately so cheap and they are a vil ahead in eco, without needing to tech supplies. So not only are you not idling your rax with supplies but the unit itself is cheap enough that it doesn’t break your eco on top of being able to throw in some spears to either defend from counter raids or help the raid with endurance.

I would think your opponent is either given enough time to wall, with the reduced pressure or enough time to simply get a few archers going which rofl stomp m@a.

The thing about them is, for every second they force the enemy to stay in feudal with them, they win. True, you probably won’t go for supplies immediately, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be a very viable option as the game progresses. I’ve seen games, even for pros, where feudal aggression goes on for a half hour or 45 minutes.

You could start with either archers or scouts and go for serious feudal aggression. You don’t even need to win, you just need to keep the enemy invested in fighting you. Because the up to castle is much more expensive than any individual eco tech, they’ll be able to take each one individually, giving them a growing advantage while the enemy slowly loses ground.

At some point, they either start hard fortifying or going for trash, and either way you’re ready and waiting to build men at arms to take them down and pin them in the feudal age. And even if you can’t do that, you’ve already got an eco lead going into the next age.

Maybe archer armor needed more than supplies

This is all fair and well, but it doesn’t explain why Malian, or even Goths don’t do that despite having an overwhelming amount of bonuses geared toward that.

Because I want to keep my eco.

Burgundian champions work just fine at doing champ stuff. Especially with Burg HC behind.

Well, archers and scouts already cover each other perfectly so trash shouldn’t be too much of a concern.

And there is still the problem with the Burgundian bonus that you can’t take as many eco upgrades earlier than you wish you could just because they are so expensive you could just go castle faster.

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Goths do win early fairly regularly. But the main difference is that Burgundians are uniquely capable of reaching absurd heights by staying in feudal. Goths, for example, only get more powerful the later in ages they get, but don’t particularly gain much benefit from staying in feudal.

Burgundians, by contrast, do. If they can stay in Feudal and keep their enemy there as well, then over the next ~15 minutes they’ll have 15% faster gold, wood, and stone collection than their enemy, as well as significantly boosted farming. I’d argue that in a long feudal fight, Burgundians are perhaps the most powerful civ in the game.

And they’re capable of doing this in part because they can start going for farms much earlier as well, since they can get horse collar and double bit axe in dark age. They have unique potential to go for massive dark and feudal aggression.

How do you force prolonged feudal with burgundians?
And if you have the res free to make all these eco upgrades, why you don’t age up to get the tech advantage?

You can go very all-in during dark age because you can safely invest in farms due to the ability to get horse collar early. This transitions into a very defensive dark and feudal age on their behalf, which delays everything.

This also gives you a resource advantage going into the next age, which is further aided by the fact that the Castle upgrade is much more expensive than any single eco upgrade. For example, bow saw costs 250 resources, compared to the castle age upgrade, which costs 1000. As long as you’re trading fairly equally with your enemy, you’ll always be better able to get your eco techs than they’ll be able to get their age up upgrade.

If you make an dark age all-in, I will simply kill you with walls + archers. Especially with a bad eco like the burgundian one.
The early eco of burgundians is just not strong enough to force a prolonged feudal against equally skilled players.

Sure, but how long a feudal must be to get one eco after another because you can only justify getting one at a time? And at the same time you are forced to pressure the opponent all the time so he can’t age up. Just one bad engangement and the opponent can make an onion and age up. And then all your eco upgreades mean nothing again.

There are several civs which would be better in this regard than burgundians: Persians, Aztecs, cumans…
They all can’t perform that strat because they also can’t force the prolonged feudal. And if you would try that strat against one of these civs, you would get destroyed by them.