The idea to give them FU Hussars (which means Cavaliers just missing Paladin upgrade) is precisely so it can give them some flexibility, while not changing their focus.
Goths need all their Gold for Infantry, and already have Hand Cannoneer and Bombard Cannon to compete with it for Gold. They really could use FU Hussar as a helpng hand, specially because they have no Gold Shaft Mining in the first place, so more Gold cost units (and paladin upgrade costs a lot of Gold) would not help them much at all.
They already need that Gold for massing Huskarls and Champions + their Infantry upgrades, as without Platemail Armour, they really do die quickly to Ranged units and Champions.
They have Hand Cannoneers with no bonus, but with no Dry Dock or Elite Cannon Galleon, and having bonuses to neither, they do not have good Docks or Archery Range.
The point still stands, Hand cannoneers cost Gold, just like all Goths Infantry. Though they so work as the Gothâs true counter to Infantry, this still leaves Goths has one of the few civs that has no FU Trash unit, and Hussars could be that unit.
I always thought they should get Long Swordsmen in the Feudal Age.
LSs are pretty useless atm, so it would make them a potent threat.
It would mean the Goths would have to make tactical decisions on upgrading rather than just spamming mindlessly.
And it would boost them in the early ages where they need help without allowing them to exponentially drive through to later ages. Come Castle Age, theyâd be just as powerful as if theyâd otherwise be.
If that alone isnât enough, you could give them 2HS in Castle as well. But their biggest problem is the early ages.
When youâre playing 1vs1, that Hand Cannon option with Goths isnât the best situation. You can try it early Imperial, but if it doesnât work you wasted a lot of gold. It doesnât take an opponent long to switch to Skirms or Onagers. For team games, I use Hand Cannons more often with Goths when you can get gold via trade etc. And especially when you have a Turk or Briton Ally.
Iâm all for buffing their trash units as well. I like the fully upgraded Hussar idea. Because end of the day the infantry doesnât hold up too well without that final armor upgrade.
Giving Goths a version of the Cumans or the Khmer bonuses is no good way to buff a civ. Their Feudal and Castle armies are already decent, they only fail at late Imperial.
They just need some FU Trash, really.
We also should not cheapen the new buffs to other civs, by replicating them in differen ways. Let them be unique.
Thatâs the exact opposite of what their stats show.
Their lowest win rates are at the ~25 minute mark. After that they gradually gain ground until they break the 50% winrate point.
The primary point they need help is in the feudal age. Giving them early Long Swords would help with that, while leaving their relatively balanced other parts of the game the same.
Early Longswords would break the game, since they would be uncounterable in Feudal. The only counter to Men-at-Arms is already Men-at-Arms, or Archers behind some sort of blockage.
Feudal Longswords, with a discount no less, would break Meta, and Goths would be known again as that one vexing rush civ that breaks the game, like when they had -35% Infantry discount on Dark Age.
Be gone with your science and stats! We argue with only feelings here! Lost track of how many people have no idea how the goth power curve looksâŠ
Reckon that LS buff might actually work! Keeping the other gothy advantages as they are might be enough to balance the LS buff⊠Maybe increase the tech time? Like how the early cuman TC is slowerâŠ
Naturally will be tons of knee jerk âits OP! YOU BROKE THE GAME, im uninstalling etcâ but peeps will adapt especially with the lower building damage til imp and the more expensive troops
+10% pop limit instead of +10 (or have the +10pop apply instantly, so it acts as if two houses were build, as an early game bonus)
Villagers have +5HP (slightly more raiding resistant and no loom vills beat wolves no matter who strikes first.
Boar provide 100 Extra Food
Infantry anti building bonus starts in dark age and goes up +1 per age, so its +1 more in every age than it currently is.
Huskarl base price -5 gold
Infantry gain +1 pierce armor (or +1/+1 armor) (starting in Feudal?)(I would prefer this over giving them the final armor upgrade, since they are then better in early ages, while still being a bit better then they currently are in imperial, while still being weaker than if they had they final armor tech. Also not as huge as getting the LS/THS upgrades one age early.
Archery units are more accurate (in the other goth thread a lot of people suggested giving them Thumb ring, while others argued that it would be too much, with this they get part of the benefit of Thumb Ring but not the full effect.) Iâd suggest +5% accuracy for Archer and Skirm lines, +10% for hand cannons and + 35% for Cavalry archer line.
With this their CAs would be at least usable. I would even suggest bumping up CA accuracy without Thumb Ring for all Civs. Also HCs would even be better than generic HCs.
What do you guys think?
Also: Should Goth be a decent Civ along all ages, or should they rather be crap in early ages and then become OP in the late game?
True, but the fact that itâs in one big chunk makes getting it pretty difficult. Not to mention the additional research time. Combine that with trying to mass troops on your enemyâs doorstep to upgrade?
And of course, you have to balance getting that later vs getting better archer armor now. Plus deciding whether to go full in during Dark Age when your troops are more expensive, or wait until later.
Sure you might wipe your enemy out, but you could also end up way overinvested in feudal age and find yourself with an inferior economy and only one TC, and find yourself crushed immediately after.
And, of course, if you both make it to Castle, youâll be no better than you would be otherwise, other than having gotten to castle age later.
o Free Loom. Buffs the Drush with +2 Militia. Buffs early game economy with 1 extra Villager in Dark Age. Buffs early game survival. Has synergy with the boar hunting bonus.
o Rollback infantry discount to 35% starting in the Feudal Age. I have a feeling the current discount nerf for Feudal and Castle is from the possibility of extended Dark Age Militia spam with the 20% Dark Age discount. But free Loom makes for a stronger Drush without the possibility of extended Dark Age Militia spam.
o Gain access to Plate Mail Armor. The gimmick for Goths is they are intentionally weak for most of the game, but then become almost unbeatable if they reach Perfusion. But the increased number of civs in the game with anti-infantry options, full Blacksmith Champions, and Supplies is a big indirect nerf to the place where Goths are supposed to beat almost everybody. Plate Mail Armor is an easy change that will make Imperial Goths infantry competitive again.
o +13% maximum population in Imperial Age. The current +10 bonus is from the original Age of King days when the max pop cap was 75. And +10 to 75 is a percentage increase of 13.33%.
Thatâs what Iâd start with. I donât know if it will be enough to fix Goths. But almost anything would be enough to make them better, and these look like the safest options while sticking to the civ flavor. If it would turn out that all of these together wouldnât be enough, then would I be open to experimental changes like having certain Swordsman line upgrades unlock an age earlier, like the Cumans have for Capped Ram.
For a long time people were asking for buffs, even before DE with supplies but the balance team seems to hate goths.
Now they are even worse than before, with removal of arson and infantry being more expensive in feudal and castle ages than before.
Give them something good, not these breadcrumbs⊠Something bold
They had 35% infantry discount from feudal for 20 years and no one thought they were broken, they were actually bad after modern metas evolved.
The gamebreaking aspect was applying the discount to dark age, they shouldnât have nerfed the discount as a whole
mass M@A already have no non-gold counter and even archers need to be besides TC or have a choke point unless you have equal numbers which isnât possible considering the costs and training time, thereâs also the problem of feudal skirms hard countering archers.
Giving feudal longswords is ridiculously gamebreaking, feudal armies should not be changed
