Eh, not as simple as that. Considering that Goths have no other bonuses that would benefit them going into any other unit line, and you’re proposing that the one good bonus they have in Feudal and Castle be nerfed, it’s hard to see this as a net positive, even on very open maps. If you win the game in Dark or very early in Feudal, then this could be considered a buff, but the longer the game goes on after that, the more emphatically it becomes a nerf. This idea even makes going Huskarl less viable, since they will be more expensive in Castle.
Not sure where you’re going with this. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you’re saying “they’re already weak, so another nerf won’t hurt.”
Anyway, guess we won’t see them in HC3, but I’m sure we will see more counters to their drush. I think the best way to balance them is with the staggered bonus I suggested and a mid-tier Feudal or Castle Age eco bonus.
That is not what I said. I literally said that they would be nerfed slightly on non-open maps. I didn’t say that they were already weak so another nerf won’t hurt. Nowhere did I say that. I am in favor of them being buffed; not nerfed.
Buffed from what they were like originally, of course. Obviously, the current bonus needs nerfing.
Remove the Dark Age discount for free Loom. Aztecs lost their free Loom from AoC for +50 starting gold because free Loom was too powerful of an economy bonus in combination with the Aztec Villager bonus, but Goths have no such other early economy bonuses. Free Loom would synergize nicely with the bonus boar damage too.
I know this doesn’t solve the Goths’ weak Feudal and Castle Ages. But I can’t think of anything civ-specific that would work and still keep the Goths flavor. I still think it’s a problem with the Militia line in general being underpowered after early Feudal, until late Imperial.
Well, free loom would be a nice boost, since that would allow them to upgrade 3 militias into men at arms without minning gold. And you save the time of researching it. Cool be a good bonus, I agree
I was one of the supporters of the 35% discount in every age. I still think the bonus itself is not OP as we could see yesterday in Viper’s and Mbl’s games. Stone walling and archers can counter the militia rush quite efficiently. Anyways, I agree this shouldn’t be the way the game should be played.
I would suggest to go back to the old 35% discount starting in feudal age but adding:
-Goths start with a free militia next to their town center.
Or:
-Goths can create the first two militias for free.
I’d rather just give them an eco bonus. This basically just gives them the Lithuanian insta-drush, but without the flexibility of the Lithuanian bonus (i.e. useless on closed maps, and does nothing to address the “one-dimensionality” some have complained about).
Lithuanians insta-drush is not an issue in my experience. In fact, lithuanians are hardly ever picked in real tournaments. It was a topic when DE came out but I think people realized it’s not that strong. I like the free loom bonus as it was mentioned before but it feels a little bit generic. I would like to see something unique and special for every civ and related to their own personality.
You guys got the goth bonus wrong, you shouldn’t make full militia in dark age, they have low attack vs everything, unless the map is completely open that strat is only annoying if caught low on guard.
The discount makes sense to make their transition into fast m@s rush better, you had to wait until feudal to produce their militia, while now civs like bulgarians, lithuanians and ethiopians have the upgrade for free and can start the strong aggression faster, while burmese and magyars have more attack, the addition of supplies makes goths even less attractive.
Banning them for HC3 feels so wrong, but well it was the same in an older tournament with the balance changes back at the release of age of Rajas, the excuse that players needed time to adjust their strategy to balance changes is something laughable, but bah they are just closing the door to see guys trying something different, and how top players react to that.
I still like the free Loom idea. For mid game buffs, they should get a discount on all Barracks upgrades, definitely. Maybe 50%, so you could afford both Long Swords/Pike and Two-Handed/Halberdier as soon as you reach the corresponding age. Cheap upgrades would really compliment the Goths’ theme of cheap infantry.
The only way to beat goths right now is to resign before 1 min!!!
I just had Malians vs Goths after going random civ… Did a super fast feudal and dropped two archery ranges even idled my TC sent everyone to gold and wood. I killed 20 militia and made like 30 archers all feudal age my opponent barely survived by building towers. We hit castle around the same time since he harassed my eco so much. He makes 1 castle sends like 12 Huskarls and a mango vs my 30 crossbows and 3 mangonels and kills everything… The huskarls literally take like a million shots to kill. Goths never needed this buff in the first place. Its insane how strong they are
If you remove the dark age bonus then goths should get:
•+10% population (220 with standard settings)
•Start with 25 population room (20 extra population added at the beginning)
•free loom
This would allow the goth player to spend more time gathering resources for a big drush or feudal with M@A. Also, 50 gold saved for militia, 100 wood saved for an economic building, and no idle TC time in dark age. Allows the goths to better fight civs with fully upgraded infantry with supplies in imperial age.
not really, thats only laughable to you. its the same in other games, for example in dota 2 when they introduce a new hero or when they change a hero so significantly that it changes the hero’s gameplay completely, they ban those heroes from tournaments for a while, for 2 reaosns, “first” to fix the hero if its really overpowered, or if there is any bugs, and “second” to give the players some time to come up with strategies
the same goes for new guns in csgo, or new maps in csgo and rainbow etc
tournament is not the place for testing a poorly thought-through gameplay change. pro players should play on a polished version of the game in their tournaments
so yeah ofc its a reasonable thing to ask if there is a big change in a civilization 2 weeks before a big tournament, that civ should be either banned entirely or be played on the previous version
but it all depends on the tournament organizer and players. they can agree to test it, or ban it. but its certainly not laughable to think players can demand a civ auto-ban due to the changes which was made recently