Grenadiers vs TAD style cavalry multipliers

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

I think the time has come for me to bring this up: Grenadiers and especially humbaraci are extremely difficult to counter for civs that rely on the TAD style cavalry multipliers. This includes (but is not limited to)

-Naginata
-Sowars
-Mahouts
-Flail Elephants
-Steppe Riders
-Iron Flails
-Raiders

Currently these cavalry are stuck doing base dmg to a ranged infantry unit intended to be poor vs cavalry – but these particular cavalry are extremely poor in return as well.

Let me make this note: I am aware that skirmishers exist and can somewhat counter them. The issue at hand that I wish to discuss is the distinct disadvantage these civs have when compared to Hussar archetype cavalry and Uhlan archetype cavalry.

I have largely experience with Japan and Hausa, feel free to chime in with any experiences you have with the above units. Yumi are the unit I have the most experience with vs grens and they are too slow to kite humbaraci. They do not have the hp to withstand the splash siege dmg or the very high melee dmg. Humbaraci and Samurai are almost on equal footing in a fight where splash isn’t relevant. Other grens are pretty close, although they are slower. Nagi take down humbaraci with only base dmg and no shipment can improve that. While I concede that nagi are extremely strong cavalry and are generally in no need of a buff, its very off-putting when both yumi and nagi are so poor against the unit they are intended to counter. There aren’t really any other options, since flaming arrows are slow and countered by humbaraci, and an age 2 humb can tank a direct shot from a flaming arrow.

Hausa feels more or less the same, with a few differences. Fulani are “fine” vs gren type units and you have griots and speed on your side, the issue arises more when it comes to the cavalry side of things. Raiders are really, really weak cav in combat, but they are pretty excellent at clearing up skirms. Lifidi are great tanks but they have very poor base dmg as well. It really doesn’t matter how much cav you have vs gren type masses as hausa, your cavalry is going to feel very mediocre against a unit they should counter.

Again to state: I don’t think grens need a nerf. I don’t think Nagi need a buff. Truthfully none of the above cav need a buff.
(Humbaraci should be 4 speed and thats my only complaint there)

I propose a pretty simple solution – I think grens and other gren type units that are classed as heavy infantry should get an additional tag “Heavy Explosive Thrower” that the above cav get a bonus against that either cancels out or partially cancels out the heavy infantry penalty. This should not be applied to Not-Hoop-Throwers or the other skirm type ones that are already not heavy infantry.

The other solution of course would be treating grens like a true light artillery and have ranged cavalry get a bonus against them while removing the heavy infantry tag. This avoids all the above issues, but adds new ones. I don’t think yabusame need 7x vs grens (clearly that would be absurd) but it would improve gren usefulness vs infantry while still providing a second ranged counter (in addition to standard artillery).

*edit: in case this isnt clear, i know that these cavalry units beat grens in small fights quite convincingly, the issue lies primarily in the time it takes to kill the grens, which means that any anticav has far more time to react and clean up the cavalry in question

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I feel like if this applies to these units it should also apply to the cossack (on a unit count basis not a pop basis) and maybe to the shock infantry units as well since they also have lesser base stats compared to a hussar and the nagi for that matter so I’m not sure if the argument kinda holds. like nagi only has 2 less atk then a base hussar so the time to kill should not be that different.

I think in the specific cases you have listed the key common denominator is that they both lack skirms that have an x2 multi against heavy, though as you say fulani perform ok due to their speed.

India has no real weakness to grens cause of the gurkha and china which has both ckn and arq which has repelling volley.

The yumi as you have a particular promblem but that is due to their lesser dps vs the grens as compared to skirm which also can’t be upgraded

so maybe a better solution is an upgrade for yumi to have like 1.75 to 2 multi vs heavy rather then using the cav.

3

Umm kindaf but managable, can’t complain much.

But this unit !!! W H A T to do !? they kill everything :confused: and always have the advantage even against the anti units like these :

Either in train time pop wise , speed or resource once the humbaracci spam begins it will always be advantageous to the ottoman.

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Uh, y’all ever gone full age 2 musk vs humbaraci? They lose to that pretty soundly. They scale after age 3 and alot of cards but in age 2 an even pop of musk wipes them.

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to be clear here, the issue is that intended counter units are losing or inneffective, not that the unit is unbeatable

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the shock inf are on equal footing with both skirms and grens, thats the difference. plus azzy gets jpk and those are pretty effective in melee vs grens also. Inca is still the worst designed civ out there so in my mind its never gonna be worth discussing - but since anticav is less effective against shock inf and chimu have amazing pathing I’m not sure its an issue. Does humbaraçi armour shrug off junglie poison dmg too? at this point nothing would surprise me the new otto units are just absurd

Back on topic: I really do think that the gren units need more consistent behaviour against counters and not-counters because at the moment there are lots of different gren units, and they are wildly inconsistent with both their unit classes and between each other as well.

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Ah, I see. They mentioned civs dont have easy access to good artillery, do they? So #### ##### of tanky, ranged, splash damage units is gonna be a hard thing.

The immediate problem is that it gives that harshest cut to the age 2 strength of grens - and they’re already a very awkward unit in age 2.

Consider;

  • High res and pop cost
  • Artillery foundry
  • No age 2 shipments
  • Has two counters in age 2 from both cav and light infantry. Or even particiallrly strong heavy infantry.
  • Very hard counter in the form of falconets

For a unit thats so hard to mass up to an effective number and so easy to countered by the 2 falc (or analogue) shipment or CIR, it feels a little hard to justify adding another hurdle to using them. Especially in possibly the only age they might get value.

Humbaraci feel alot better than normal grens, despite being technically weaker to infantry early on, because they continue to scale past age 3 off the back of the ability to fight cannons. It will likely survive from having a worse matchup vs melee cav because that fits its role too.

Extrapolating from this, if you want to give the standard grens archtype another weakness early they need to have a payoff. In this specific case, if you want to beat them with the cav mentioned, its only fair that they beat the infantry of the civs mentioned here (sepoys, gurkha, ashi, javelin riders) throughtout the game. At that point they have more than a long list of counters.

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none of the above civs have 2 falcs.

japan does not get this tech. hausa does not get this tech. india and china both require a shipment for it. this isn’t about euros (shocking, i know)

you’re correct. its blatantly stupid to give a unit the tags of an anticav unit (as all heavy infantry except grens do) and then make it bad vs cavalry. they should be countered by cavalry or skirms but not both, imo. as it stands there is an inconsistency which uniquely punishes a very specific type of cavalry. Since the devs refuse to change the unit to behave like either a skirm or a musket, the unit will always be awkward. if the unit was properly consistent with either light infantry (counters anticav) or heavy infantry (counters cavalry in melee) there would be no issue. The other option i proposed above is to make them countered by goons but no longer vulnerable to skirms, which would give them a proper niche and role with a clear counter. currently its just a vague “idk kinda good and bad against everything”

this is not another weakness, they are already bad against cav - - its just an inconsistency against a specific type of cav. its not the responsibility of japan, hausa, china and india to somehow be worse vs grens than other civs to make gren civs feel better about their awkward unit

again, not japan or hausa’s responsibility to make up for the gren design. grens also lose to redcoats too, but weirdly beat longbows. its an awful unit design

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hausa does…in imp. tbh if they revert to allow the cosair marksman to have 1 pop again I think that is more then enough, its fast as well.

Now that you say it, it should since it is siege damage, might want to test it.

Might want to check stuff like hurracas, arrow knight , neftenya and the lakota units to be sure

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well, yeah, im gonna ignore imperial for the sake of discussion. its not like it affects fulani anyways. I’ve stated a few times hausa needs a way to reduce outlaw pop, corsairs included. I agree that they are a good solution, and akan don’t do too bad either.

i really wouldn’t be surprised. what a joke unit