Honestly what needs to happen is make them 1 pop, and available at the barracks, the reason I never use them at least is because you need to waste 250w on a foundry and another 200w for houses just for 10 grens, maybe a slight rate of fire buff, I’d avoid increasing range because look how good the peruvian grenadiers were for portugal revolt.
2 Likes
In real life Grenadiers where normal Musketeers that also had genades, they evolved into elite Musketeers over time.
So a radical redesign using some new mechanics that where added in the Definitive edition:
Idea 1:
Two ranged attacks, one long range musket shot and one short range grenade attack. They automatically switch to grenade when the enemy is close (the Musket shot as a minimal range)
Idea 2:
They normally attack with muskets but have a charged attack that throws a grenade that is a lot stronger. The cooldown doesn’t have to be long maybe only 20 seconds.
Making them strong 2 pop musketeers that also happen to throw grenades sometimes.
6 Likes
could be a fun unique unit for a faction.
2 Likes
Grenadiers do not counter musketeers.
The low AoE damage its used to counter blobs of low hp units
But yeah, the 250 wood on the foundry its a big price to pay in the 2nd age and in numbers they still comparative worse to falconets (less range and damage)
The grenade launcher made them plenty viable tbh, the difficulty with them is the fact that they are hard to mass, cost 2 pop and requires the artillery foundry. You only really need like 10 of them in addition to your regular army for them to be viable, since they deal splash damage that can mass kill low hp units.
To make them viable in age 2 - maybe a shipment of 5-6 grens with a cost. That way you can more easily get a the shipment + a batch to make it a viable push.
Age 3 - Grenade launcher should come with some grens (maybe for a cost) again to make massing easier.
age 4 - maybe something to do with pop reduction, since that will be their primary limiting factor as the game progress.
I think the ‘grenade launcher’ card should be absorbed into the ‘advanced arsenal’, and the insendiary grenade buff should be an industrial age buff and give it a bonus against heavy infantry and a bit against general infantry. But a lot of negative multiplier against shock infantry, artillery and cavalry.
6 Likes
Grens are my fav unit but they are rarely used at a top sup lvl. I think the best way to make them more viable is just give them a shadow tech to age 3, similar to how dutch skirms shadow tech when you age to III.
It’s the cost and resource used to mass enough of them which makes them non viable, so by taking away the 400 res to up them and time this takes they could be used in top lvl play imo.
Remember that Russia has the ‘Ransack’ card, which boost infantry siege attack by 50%, this also applies to Grenadiers.
I know I’m resurrecting a very old topic but I think it would make more sense actually, now that we have the Mexican “Soldado” and we’re seeing some changes for the Europeans I think it would be nice to give the grenadier a standard musket attack and an ability special to throw grenades with a rof of about 30 or 45 seconds. In order not to destroy the counter system, melee and musket attacks would have no multipliers, just the ability to throw grenades which could have something like a 1.5x multiplier against infantry in general.
1 Like
Yes the core problem is not solved
- Nobody except Ottomans would build an artillery foundry in age 2. And Ottomans go for Abus.
- When I really have resources for an artillery foundry, I do not need grenadiers.
- Very situational. As an expensive unit, it does not have good survivability.
- Very slow production (even longer than cavalry)
To make grenadier useful, it should be an early strong counter-infantry option in age 2 and a cheap alternative for artillery in age 3 and so on. But it fails on both. At least it should be good enough so that spending 250w on the artillery foundry in age 2 is a viable choice, or just add it to barracks (radical) like how they added falconets to forts.
remove heavy infantry tag + add 5 gren shipment for euro civ costing 250 coin, busted within a week
- bonus idea , make it 1 pop
The advantage to grenadiers is they frag musks who can’t do anything to them with their 40% resist, but they also trash trade posts.
Just give them some protection from cav with pikes which also raze buildings fast. To be honest It feels like a doppel rush.
But if I have the resource, I’d rather build another barracks or a stable. That would be much more flexible.
One point to add - Ottoman grenadiers benefit from New Order Infantry. They get the +.5 vs heavy cav and +.3 vs shock infantry. Still have 1/3 rd the melee dps of post-imp jans, tho.
The biggest problem I see with this unit is that it classified as a heavy unit. For an early artillery analogue I can accept being near helpless cs cav, but a composition of grenades/musk is countered by simple skirm spam. Making it a light infantry unit lets it combo with musks - tanks skirms for heavy inf, protected from cav by them, and adds decent dps in musk wars.
If anyone thinks it might be too much, consider that the native analouge of grenadiers (chakrams) have 18 base damage, 18 max range, 4.5 base speed, AND a x1.5 multiplier vs heavy inf. They have less hp and do ranged damage, but between resistance, aoe, and multipliers they mess up infantry in general.
Another thing is that the devs seem to overestimate the effect of grenade launchers, so they nerfed almost any other grenadier techs or cards. But the problem still remains: 250w on the artillery foundry in age 2 is not worth it.
That’s subjective, besides It’s not that bad, It used to be 300 wood. And the only grenadier card that has really changed is the british one that’s now available earlier when grenadiers are more relevant.
Grenadiers can put real pressure on the opponent and they are devastating in a rush especially since the go-to unit most players pick in age 2 are musketeers and they have that 40% range resist which means even skirms don’t do that well against them. An early forward foundry helps since they have average movement speed and you would have at most 10 at that stage.
1 Like
Well let’s try to enumerate each of the problems of this unit:
-
Need to be trained in the artillery depot (250 wood makes a difference in age 2);
-
costs 180 resources (120 food and 60 coins) and 2 population slots;
-
has the heavy infantry tag, which makes it vulnerable to skirmishers, artillery and cavalry.
My suggestions for trying to improve this: -
It will be possible to train it in the barracks, or create a card that sends an artillery deposit wagon + n grenadiers.
-
Do a little rework like I said before where throwing grenades is a special skill and the default attack is a musket, but with the detail of ignoring armor, in addition the siege damage must be at least 2 pikemen, since that cost more than 2 piqueiros.
-
Remove the heavy infantry tag so he could have a better chance against skirmishers but would be more exposed to cavalry as compensation.
Pretty small problems, the only real one is that artillery foundries and grenadiers are quite an expense in age 2. You’re spending a whole 250 wood on a foundry that at that point can only make grenadiers. But the same is the case for hussars and stables. The goto military building in age 2 is barracks, it’s a safe choice with 2/3 options (unless you’re Ottoman).
So it basically means you can either have hussars or grenadiers you usually can’t have the luxury of both. That’s the real reason you don’t see grenadiers
Only half the european civs have grenadiers and all civs have a hussars or equivalents of hussars.
Just removed the heavy infantry tag, but not changing anything
It would be more balance.
250 woods in Age 2 is expensive, but it is a must. Grenadiers is quite useful in age 2 with anti-cav like Rodelero, Club Warrior, Rajput and the 2 runners (Chimu Runner, Coyote runner). If Grenadiers are not trained in artillery, nerf will be needed vs xbow and switch back to 40% ranged resistance
Please do not increase any Siege damage, it will be become another Huaraca which is too OP.
Ottoman grenadiers should get free grenade launchers in guard upgrade without homecity card, it will help Ottoman players considering to use abus gun or grenadiers. Ottoman grenadiers should also affected by the “Engineering School” Home City Card
I suggest we may have more interesting grenadiers, such as
Russian grenadiers +6 more LOS and range, but nerf them into ×0.1 vs. hand Cavalry