DauT is being kinda baity here, Shrivamsha are obviously nowhere close old SL, SL required like twice their numbers in halbs to be beaten, meanwhile I don’t think you even need to research halbs against shrivamsha. Heck they probs don’t even beat Saracen kts or something.
Well ofc these are singular opinions and might have exaggerated, misplaced or whatever. The point is just that the unit performs good vs archers if you play it correctly.
And yes the unit is garbage vs knights and basically any melee unit except maybe light cav. But the civ jas it’s own answers for that. It’s a bit like old indians or even new hindustanis that you have good eco and good mobile counter units.
Imo it just boils down to their insanely strong camels with a solid eco bonus behind it.
Grujaras just counter all the knight civs out there because of timing and sheer power of their camel play.
Grujaras Camels take 2 hits less in to kill a knight (8=>6 w/o bloodlnise, 10=>8 with). Comparable with hindustanis which need 20 % less time to kill knights aswell. So they are at the same leve at this stage.
Berbers would be in the same category if they had the same eco as those two, which is about equivalent to field 1-2 extra camels.
Imo both camel lines need to be nerfed and then the true power of the civs is revealed.
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Tbh something I once thought could be done with the Imperial camel is to use it similarly to Burgundian Paladins
Basically the civ wouldnt have bloodlines but would have either free to upgrade or cheaper to upgradecastle age heavy camels (with reduced bonus damage until imp) and the imperial camel would have 160 base hp
Problem with that is how Hindustanis are designed
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Well with all the screeching about Franks you would expect those civs to be winning and being picked way more 11 Also let’s be real if we are discussing the “I can’t micro with Briton archers nor kill camels” ELO are we sure the Gurjara eco bonus is being used to its best? Like I’m not even sure higher level players agree on the best way to use it yet.
Heavy camels don’t even need bloodlines to kill paladins. It would literally be better than all the camels we have right now in castle age.
I mentioned reduced bonus damage in castle age for that reason…
Pretty unclear indeed. I think in general if you open scouts you wanna eat the sheep in feudal but if you open archers you leave them in unless you need some food fast.
That’s probably the general “thumbs rule”.
But it’s most likely indeed more about timing. You want your camels out when the first knight rush comes. So upgrades aren’t that important, just sheer numbers / base stats.
Then what’s the point of putting it one age earlier if it’s worse??? Would you ever get chemistry in castle age if it only affected buildings before imp? Or cavalier as Burgundians if it was only +2 attack and not more HP (ok you would be kinda forced to to not have bad cav but people wouldn’t see it as a great bonus). And weaker heavy camel in exchange for BL is nerfing their light cav and CA, which I don’t think is necessary at all, especially if they don’t actually get better camels.
Then the bonus outright becomes pointless if things work this way no?
Its the same as Camel Scouts/Cuman town center
It would still be better than normal camels too, just not as good as normal heavy camels (it would also deal more than 10 bonus damage)
And in imperial would be the same as a heavy camel without bloodlines
I mean let’s assume it’s made so that a castle age heavy camel is as good as the bonused normal camels Hindustanis have rn (you don’t keep the bonus attack speed right?) Then the camels are nerfed, the light cav/hussars are too, and the cav archer option is no longer viable, is it really needed?
The point is to make that you would still give the civ a bonus to camels without making imperial camels busted
Also I mentioned that it wouldnt work well with their current civ design earlier
Also
It would be only an slight nerf to imperial camels (that could still get +2 vs cav if the nerf was too harsh)
Its not a big nerf for anything camel related outside late imperial camels
I don’t even think these camels are too problematic. Maybe gurajas bonus dmg could be reduced to 33% because of the other camel related bonuses that come in later. But apart from that why not let 2 civs have camels that decimate knights? Boths ones are still bad vs archers so it should be fine for tgs. In 1v1 it’s not usual to have hard counters. Look at how mongols kill everything late game that a civ like celts can make.
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Hindustanis are good because they have a VERY good eco bonus that accompanies them throughout all ages (if you do 21 pop you save 85f for example and it only gets better from there), but also a VERY good tech tree: Halbs, good UU, Siege Engineers Bombard Cannons, OK Cav Archers, the 2nd best Camel in the game (and arguably 1st best in terms of how it looks), a FU Hussar…
They are just very good in terms of army composition, and can play any strat vs any civ, including Castle age crossbows, booming, Hussar spam on Arabia games. Their eco bonus is not quite Chinese-tier but very close to it. And arguably they have a more “powerful” late game than Chinese (Chinese notoriously have no power unit aside from Arbalest).
Yes they are light cavalry unit that you get as a replacement of knight line (heavy cavalry). I think you are missing the whole context why I said that. There tech tree is not small other than not having pikeman.
Pros and influencers disagreed. So devs removed that and Indians were mostly okay in terms of win rate, both in 1v1 and TG.
In 1v1, it never felt too strong to me. It was a minimum for them to fight against archer civs imo. Anyway it has been removed completely and looks like Ghulam is working like charm.
I mean if they could do all the jobs of knight, why would devs bother designing a new unit instead of just giving them knights? I’m okay with the basic of the design. Maybe they could give a feudal age scout version of the unit instead of auto and freely upgradable camel scout. In that case, S. Rider could be a parallel to eagle line but on horse.
I think you should consider them as mounted eagles then. Unlike eagles, they suck against cavalry but at least you can outrun them.
I think there will be change to their PA and shield mechanics.
Weirdest composition I’ve ever heard. Both will die to skirmishers. EA can still take a lot of shots but why you would use halb instead of LC?
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Only the unit slot is same. That being said, Xolotl Warriors and Scout Cavalry too share the same slot. You won’t say Xolotl Ws are replacements of Scouts.
Actually none of their military unit is fully upgradeable in post imperial.
… The job of a knight is not raiding or is not limited to killing archers.
full Skirm doesn’t beat Ele archer + Halbs because it’s less pop efficient.
consider them as you like, for 20g it’s not a good deal to raid. Eagles can do more besides killing eco, for example no weakness to pikes and can snipe monk + siege.
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In the aftermath you say that halbs don’t counter heavy cav.
Are you sure?
Well the point is you don’t pair ea with halbs because there is very little cav units that can deal with them. Skirms is still by far the best counter to them. Cav works only by raiding their eco and abusing low speed. Usually you pair elephant archers with onagers (maybe light cav but affording both isn’t easy) and have some monks behind them to heal or convert bbc or opponents onagers.
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Yes, Onagers are the best combination with EA indeed.
That’s why I feared a bit about the dravidian ones as they have SO, but without Siege Engineers and I also didn’t knew how heavily they would nerf the EAs.
They are now a shadow of what they used to be, even losing against (nerfed!) War Wagons…
Did I really give the impression of “S.Rider is a replacement of knight bcz they share the same slot” ? Please read all of our replies before. I hope that will help.
Is that a trivia? Right now I can’t remember any civ like that. Closest one is probably Huns whose tech tree is also very narrow outside of stable.
Why are we going circle? Is my English is not good or you have a hard time understanding what I’m trying to say. I have never said S.Rider can do all things that knight can do.
S.Rider can also snipe siege.
Doesn’t actually answer my question. Let me make it simpler. How Halb+EA counter each other weakness?