[Helping weak civs] some minor ideas for improvements

[DoctBaghi]

@JonOli12

Dice Rolls are dependant on luck, AoE2 matches are much moer dependant on player input.

I am sorry, but yours is a bad analogy. AoE2 is not a luck-based game.

My is an analogy based on the statics laws, you respond is based on what?

And luck is just another word for random factors, which AoE if full of them.

[DoctBaghi]

My questions remains.

[JonOli12]

@DoctBaghi

Then explain how and why we should ignore what we fell?

We should not ignore it, but it should always play “second fiddle” to the hard mathematical realities of the business at hand.

I am not an emotional man, and frankly, arguments from emotion bewilder me, and I find them incomprehensible.

I know that there are many people who think more with their intuition (Emotional Intelligence), and even others who think more with their physical environment and sense of place on it (Kinetic Intelligence); but numbers are fairer and less biased than any other type of judgement availabe to Man.

[JonOli12]

You scenario is not tranportable to AoE2, since it is not a luck based game.

Luck based games cannot be balanced by default.

[Parthnan]

These truths are what i have tried explaining to JonOli AND MatCauthon countless times, but to no avail, I sincerely wonder if it is worth the effort

[DoctBaghi]

Who said anything about balance, I ask you if base on the data I give you you can make a certain statement. On a statistical perspective my example and AoE are equal.

[Sylux1000]

@JonOli12

A civ that is actually picked only a few times, but wins the majority of times it is picked, is still an incredibly strong civ, taht most people do not know how to play with or against.

I will be more explicit.

Assume mayans are played 100 times with a winning rate of 49%. 50 vs Aztecs and 50 vs Chinese.

Assume Byzantines are played 20 times with winning rate of 51%. 10 vs Turks and 10 vs Portuguese.

Can you state from these data that mayans are worse than Byzantines?

[JonOli12]

Not at all. AoE2 is heavily dependant of player input, while dice rolls (unless you are cheating) are not.

[JonOli12]

@Sylux1000

Can you state from these data that mayans are worse than Byzantines?

No, but I can state taht the Byzantines are strong enough to be a winning counterpick to several meta civs, and therefore, are balanced enough.

[Szebo210]

@JonOli12

Wholeheartedly disagree. Intuition is biased, numbers are not.

■■■■ Sapiens developed a brain that constantly lies to itself, so personal experience is always tainted at the start.
Winrates are far more reliable, even incomplete winrate data is a better judgement of how a civ performs, than personal opinion-based experience.

Players can tell you what feels strong or bad about a gameplay element, but they cannot balance it in any way, shape or form.
Most players do not have the background necessary in game development to do it.

@MatCauthon3

Feelings are inherently biased. Numbers are not.

-Then why the f did you post countless threads about balancing before the statistics came out if you know that what you’re posting is wrong???
-Then how did balancing succeed before statistics came out?
-Then why do devs and people care about balance changing before statistics come out and why do they implement “extremely risky” - as you would say - balance changes?

[Parthnan]

@Szebo210

@MatCauthon3

Feelings are inherently biased. Numbers are not.

-Then why the f did you post countless threads about balancing before the statistics came out if you know that what you’re posting is wrong???
-Then how did balancing succeed before statistics came out?
-Then why do devs and people care about balance changing before statistics come out and why do they implement “extremely risky” - as you would say - balance changes?

[Sylux1000]

@JonOli12

No, but I can state taht the Byzantines are strong enough to be a winning counterpick to several meta civs, and therefore, are balanced enough.

From the data I gave you, what can you say? About the fact that Byzantines are stronger or weaker than mayans.

[Szebo210]

@MatCauthon3

That’s why I believe we need more then a month between balance patches . One month isn’t giving us enough information. I’ve said it before. Feelings are inherently biased

I agree that we need more time between balance changes, but because of another reason. Statistics still won’t be reliable just after 2 months, but players will much likely figure out the different plays and startegies provided by the new balance changes, so they can propose better balance changes that would be healthier for the game.

[Parthnan]

@JonOli12

No, but I can state taht the Byzantines are strong enough to be a winning counterpick to several meta civs, and therefore, are balanced enough.

On top of Sylux1000’s valid and logical points, JonOli, haven’t you just used your feelings about the “Byzantines” being that which you explain, even though the data provided had no such indication?
The data provided had “Byzantines” play only “Turks” and “Portugese”…
Abstract thinking 101

Where are they, JonOli and MatCauthon,
this is not a Phd Thesis we are asking them to think about here,
this is Statistics 101, Abstract thinking 101 and Logic 101

[DoctBaghi]

@JonOli12

I know that there are many people who think more with their intuition (Emotional Intelligence), and even others who think more with their physical environment and sense of place on it (Kinetic Intelligence); but numbers are fairer and less biased than any other type of judgement availabe to Man.

That’s a bunch of nonsense.

@JonOli12

I am not an emotional man, and frankly, arguments from emotion bewilder me, and I find them incomprehensible.

If that is true, it is worrying from a clinical prospective.
The fact alone, that you’re year, proving your point and arguing with us demonstrates that you care about the game, and by so you’re feeling an emotion.

@JonOli12

Not at all. AoE2 is heavily dependant of player input, while dice rolls (unless you are cheating) are not.

Your answer make me understand that you didn’t understand what I’m talking about. It’s about the process that brig to have the datas, but how you you analyze them. I’ll make an AoE example, if you have 2 civs with about 50 win rate, but te first date come from 1000 games, the second from 10, can you onestly state that those two win rate are statically equal?

[JonOli12]

@Szebo210

-Then why the f did you post countless threads about balancing before the statistics came out if you know that what you’re posting is wrong???

Because I did not know, since we did not have the numbers for DE, only for HD, and DE is a very different game in terms of stats.
I used the next best thing, pro feedback, in the absence of numbers.

[JonOli12]

@DoctBaghi

If that is true, it is worrying from a clinical prospective.
The fact alone, that you’re year, proving your point and arguing with us demonstrates that you care about the game, and by so you’re feeling an emotion.

Having emotions is not the same has being emotional. You do not have to be completely emontionless, to not make emotional arguments.

@DoctBaghi

Your answer make me understand that you didn’t understand what I’m talking about. It’s about the process that brig to have the datas, but how you you analyze them

I understand what you meant with you analogy, but it was still a bad analogy that has very little relevance to AoE2.
It is comparing apples to oranges.

@DoctBaghi

2 civs with about 50 win rate, but te first date come from 1000 games, the second from 10, can you onestly state that those two win rate are statically equal?

Yes, because that never happens, and from a numbers perspective, 5000 and 50 games are the same, if the winrate is constant.

[Parthnan]

@JonOli12

Yes, because that never happens, and from a numbers perspective, 5000 and 50 games are the same, if the winrate is constant.

[Szebo210]

Exactly expresses my feelings.

[Parthnan]

Told you twice that i have tried explaining Statistics 101 to JonOli AND MatCauthon in countless balance discussion threads, but to no avail, I sincerely wonder if it is worth the effort