How do y'all feel about the new civ designs?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

Personnally, I think the new civs are interesting way to deal with the game balance.
They all feature new things, that could turn the tide of battle if used correctly, while still beeing counterable.

Those new units will definitly change the way some civs are played, against the news civ at least. Team combos will be very interesting too, lots of possibilities.

The one that surprised me at first look was the Shu, I mean no damn infantry upgrade after men-at-arm ? That’s rude, like, no one ever had that, with only first blacksmith attack upgrade for cav and inf, this will definilty be interesting to play.

Also really like the fire archer mechanics, and lou chuan that have different behavior depending on what target type their attack. Technic wise, they made it a very simple way so modders can use that very easily, and it’s giving a lot, like, A LOT, of possibilities for map designer. Will just give you an example, I tested to add charged-projectile to a ram, and it works perfectly, also tested broadside triple deck type firing for a warship, and it’s insanely fun to play with.

I’m not convinced about the heroes in ranked game, but we’ll see, maybe it’s a good idea, maybe it’s not.

And those delay damage mechanics, and the poxi fire spot…That brought to the game a level of game mechanic we never seen before, outside of scenarios, and it’s crazy, love it !

Of course, the fire lancer and rocket carts, I really like them too, they’re totally out of the regular AoE2 box, but when you play them…It feels they’re at their right place, like if they always belonged to the game. That’s probably the part I like the most, new things, but close to what the game is and was while improving, evolving.

Do you remember back in the days when your good old conquistador were killing your own melee unit when both attacked the same damn gates during El Cid mission 1 ? Things are way better now, jurchen grenadier arrived with a new attribute system where you can control damage dealt to friendly unit. Okay it’s 0 realistic, but this is perfect for gameplay confort.

And that dragon ship, it’s a small thing, but it’s a cool addition, we need more imperial age units specialisation by civs. Nothing crazy, just some small fancy regional themed thing, Savar, Legionary, Dragon Ship, Dromon, Lou Chuan, probably forgot some but you got the point.

I’m impatient to play Jurchen and Khitan, and the campaigns !

22

It seems they are heavily experimenting with Civ designs.

The 3K Civs have the Knight-line replaced with a regional unit, the Trebuchet removed with a regional unit, and the Cannon Galleon replace with a regional unit. All have another unique unit in the Barracks / Archery Range / Siege Workshop.
Jurchens and Khitans have replacements for Knights and Mangonels, and Khitans for Bombard Cannons as well.

All this makes Civs more asymmetrical. AoE2 purists will hate it, but it makes the game more interesting to play, and also gives the devs more tools to balance units and Civs.

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23

Something minor I want to complain about is the insistance of devs on making the new mounted siege units fragile, slow and gimmicky

Whats the point of that? Why not take advantage of their most unique aspect, them being on a horse or a camel and make them tanky and/or mobile?

I will also now take an in depth look at the 3k civs, but Im watching some videos to get a good gripe of them

24

Why does the Lou Chuan and Turtle Ship have oars yet both have no animated oars unlike Chronicle ships?

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25

Chornicles ships are based on AoE2: RoR animation sets, they already had the animation skeleton ready, so it was very small work.

Do you remember the day of AoK and TC when SAILS changed depending on if ships were idle or moving ? I’m missing the sails of that time…

But it’s also because it’s time and space, animated oars for motion, animated sails for motion, animated cannon recoil… All that means frames, frames means harddrive space.

One day maybe we’ll have sails back as the originals were, and oars for all ships.

We can go far you know, why my african villagers aren’t african at all then ?

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26

I’ve awoken from my slumber to say: the more camels platform supports the appearance of trebuchet camels.

Honestly I was banking on trash camels, but this is so much more camelly.

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27

I wish they had at least some of the camel speed tho

Imagine some speedy, tanky trebs

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28

They did so much its shoddy to miss out this small thing.

29

We know that the Jurchens were famous for their heavy cavalry, and relied on them to quickly rise and conquer North China. However, the heavy cavalry UU in Castles is hard to be gathered before the economy can afford to spam it. When there is no Knight or any equivalent in Stables, then they won’t be able to have a Castle Age game with mainly heavy cavalry that is supposed to reflect their historical warfare. Heavy cavalry should be their first identity — even before the siege and gunpowder units.

The Jurchens and their descendant Manchus were known for their mastery of mounted archery, but the civ lacks decent cavalry archers. The bonus of fast attacking for cavalry archer is only making up to the lack of Thumb Ring but still no accuracy. The fast attacking would benefit well at scout rush, but in the Castle Age that won’t be reliable. The only economy bonus is weak, while the Siege Engineers costs 500 food and 150 wood which is still high in the Castle Age. I guess they might rely on Fire Lancers and Steppe Lancers until they can well afford Castles and Iron Pagoda.

It would make sense to move the Iron Pagoda to Stables. It can ignore melee attack, just like the Shrivamsha rider can ignore ranged attack. After that, it could cost a bit higher in food, and the Grenadier can be moved to Castles and have Elite upgrade in the Imperial Age.

After they get a better Castle Age game with the above, I guess I’d like to remove the bonus that allow Siege Engineers available in the Castle Age. Then, as for their fully upgraded siege workshop with multiple bonuses, maybe removing Bombard Cannon could be a decent nerf.

I just don’t get the unique reference of the Fortified Bastions, and also I think they have already a superior defense so maybe I’d like to change it too. The new one could be a military improvement for cavalry archers, like +2/+2 armor or regeneration, and be named to like Meng’an Mouke (their military system), so that they could have an aggressive cavalry archer game without Parthian Tactics.

To be honest, the Jurchen civ is relatively the fine one. The Khitan civ is more weird, gimmicky and inaccurate with some power creep.

First of all, what the hack is “Liao Dao”? Its special capability seems also a complete gimmick. A sharp sword will cut the enemy in half instead of making him bleed to death.

As far as I know, the Liao dynasty’s dao (single-edged sword) had nothing special to made it a UU. If people really want a Chinese soldier unit that uses dao, why not just have a Dao Swordsman replace the Two-handed Swordsman for Chinese, Jurchens (god they don’t even have Longsword) and Khitans? Then we can find a UU that makes more sense for them, like a cataphract using a bow or crossbow. Personally, I really want a heavy-armoured mounted crossbowman.

The overall design feels weird and has power creep, especially they gain many effects to spearmen and skirmishers as if they were a defensive civ like Byzantines. However, based on their warfare in history, they should not have such a footmen-focused identity. That’s more like Tangut, Tibetan or Bai thing.

As a nomadic empire, they had adopt some atypical tactics, such as the frontal assault by heavy cavalry after flanking and harassing by light horse archers. However, they do not get any heavy cavalry units, and more surprisingly lack Bloodlines. The bonus that the melee attack upgrade effects are doubled is fine, and with Pastures and the hunting bonus it can bring an aggressive Scout and Steppe Lancer rush, until the early Castle Age. They seem to have to rely seriously on Heavy Cavaly Archers after that, even though later on the strange effect of the Ordo Cavalry may make Steppe hLancers perform decently, or even overpowerfuly.

There is a rumor that this Khitan civ was originally designed as a Tangut civ. Why don’t they just name this civ Tanguts directly? No matter it was Khitan or Tangut, there should be heavy cavalry, and there should be Lou Chuan instead of Cannon Galleon.

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30

The Jurchen seem a bit weak but I think their steppe lancers will not be that bad in castle age. Its still really limited but i doubt its as hopeless as you think

Yeah a bit disapointed by the Khitans lacking heavy cavalry and being an hybrid civ with the Tanguts. They have all the tools to get the two civs into the game without much work

Btw, do you know what the Wei castle is based on? Was wondering if Xianbei/Khitans could use it

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31

Yeah the fast attacking steppe lancers could be decent for transition to the Iron Pagoda or to the gunpowder units with Siege Engineers, if there were a good economy bonus or their scout rush had a good result. Once they get behind in the Feudal, the help from steppe lancers would be limited.

Very disappointed. I have created topics about civ concepts for East Asian civs. I have passion for them.

In my concepts, the Khitans could have a heavy cavalry using crossbows and have trash cavalry archers as their iconic identity.

The Tanguts should have their Mounted Trebuchet as a bombard cannon equivalent, trekker infantry as a shock infantry in Barracks, and Iron Hawk cavalry in Castles.

The Jurchens, Khitans and Tanguts all deserve heavy cavalry in stables.

I don’t know. But I think it could fit Xianbei but not Khitans.

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32

Yeah their eco is pretty bad abd their early to mid game military isnt stellar

I get why you are very disapointed, Im honestly just coping a bit. The Khitanguts are bad but comparing to the Three Kingdoms civs Im just glad its not another Han dynasty…

If its close to Beijing it should still fit, right? (And honestly Im fine with using stuff from the Xianbei for the Khitan)

33

If they have heavy cavalry, knights or Iron Pagoda, in stables, the bad eco would be fine.

Honestly if the Three Kingdoms content is in a spin-off game, I would welcome it.

The point is the period. The castles of Three Kingdoms are kind of Han Dynasties-style. In my opinion, at latest that’s could work for a timeline that ends in Northern and Southern dynasties, the period that Xianbei conquer the northern China.

The castle of Khitans needs a style at the period of Tang or Song, and it should have a northern style, so it might be similar to the Mongols castle. To be honestly, I won’t dislike they have the Mongols one, and let the Mongols get a new one that could be more crude and more nomadic like the Huns and Cumans one.

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34

Tbh the Iron Pagoda isnt that good. Surprisingly weak

I dont mind mixing time period when uts the same (or very closely related) nations but thats a personal opinion. I like the current Franks design for example

35

Not surprising. I had the exact same gimmick for the Polynesian Koa until y’all told me to buff it, which I did. I’m hoping the devs DON’T buff it the same way, because I need my unit to have some differentiation.

36

Its surprising to me because at first glance doesnt look much worse than knights

But in practice it barely wins against Coustillier, a cheaper unit which the Iron Pagoda should be prepared to fight, since it can block the blast damage

I guess they are better vs halbs than knights

37

Militia line and CA are the only counter to them

38

Yeah I have seen Ornlu’s video

I think the archer test was probably badly staged, but the unit may actually see play

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39

Maybe make their charge bar refill a bit faster.

Sure. I just like to have the civ basically focused on the Khitans and just allow it to be playable as Xianbei in campaigns. I think in terms of Chinese history, AoE2 should focus on the Sui to Ming period, although having the 4th century as the boundary of the timeframe allows it to refer to a period before the Sui.

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40

Yeah. But don’t make it anything absurdly fast like every 6 seconds or something. That would be busted for a cavalry unit. Plus, I think such an ability should be reserved for the Koa if the Polynesians were ever added.