their OP from existance. aztec got smalll nerfs it didnt change and mayas same problem
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i think its partly due to them being exotict, they are very different from the other civs by nature, with the eagle and exotic UU/UT(they actually have an impact makes them exotic) etc…
so my guess is devs have kept them as powerhouses because of the level of diversity they bring to the game
the same way things like britons and franks were kept stronger than they should be for so long because they are poster boys for the middle ages and the types of civs that players are attracted to…
when we consider how much weaker civs like port or italy were for so incredibly wrong, it just makes it even more egregious…
but it is what is … hopefully there’s enough people complaining that eagles will finally get their nerf
inb4 “civs are fine” “balance waka waka”
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I think eagles are not the (only) problem as Incas are not that great. I think it is the eco bonus that is the problem tbh.
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Eagles might not be the only problem, but they are the MAIN problem.
Civ bonuses may be broken down in 2 categories ultimately, Eco bonuses and Military bonuses. You generally need both to be considered an A or S tier civ. As an example, Byzantines have one of the best military bonuses in the game, but are undoubtedly lower tier.
I would say, in terms of pure Eco bonuses, both Aztecs and Mayans have fairly average and reasonable bonuses. The Aztec one is +3 carry capacity, which is a fairly small bonus that helps a bit with wood gathering and farms, mostly in Dark/Feudal age.
Their military “bonus” is simply having the Eagle Warrior. What makes the Eagle Warrior a problematic unit is a mix of different aspects:
- the popular counters of someone who wants to boom and defend are generelly Siege and Monk. These are fairly micro-intensive counters and battles are won or lost based on how good your Monk and Siege micro is in those 10 v 10 fights that you get in early Castle age. Eagle Warriors are a counter unit to both and also get conversion resistance on top
- Eagle Warriors cost mostly gold, and as such, free up your economy by allowing you to use Food for booming, upgrades etc.
- 3 pierce armor in Castle Age allows you to run under TC. Only Turk Hussar can do that also.
This is the combination of factors that allows Meso to shine.
Are Meso civs OP? Yes, a bit, but I wouldn’t go too hard nerfing them because they are missing a WHOLE production building (Stable). Let’s assume for a moment Eagle Warriors were removed. Then all meso civs would be forced to play Archers (infantry is not viable until Imp). Which would make Meso very predictable.
Is Eagle Warrior strong? Yes, but so are Knights. “Cavalry” or pseudo-cavalry units are always strong. Eagles overall seem fine as a cavalry units, it’s just that unlike cavalry units they are not weak to Monks. Longswords are also a very poor counter, not only due to low speed, but most importantly due to the massive amount of resources you need to upgrade Longswords. All in all, I think if Eagle had more counters outside Longsword-line, such as a bit less resistance to Monks or no bonus dmg vs Siege, they could be more tolerable. Maybe removing bonus dmg vs Siege would make mass Scorps + a few Knights a viable comp to counter Meso.
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no civs are op now. look at win rate. Mayans is top tier sure but aztecs is below 50%
Removing bonus vs Siege would still leave Eagle Warriors untouched vs most unit comps. One of the main problems of Eagle Warriors (especially in Empire Wars format) is that there isn’t truly an army composition that can beat Mangonel/Monk/Eagle Warrior AND you can get with early Castle Age eco. To a lesser degree, this applies to Random Map also. In theory, BIG number of Knights beat everything, but you can’t get a good amount of Knights in early Castle, so conversions matter more. A LOT of Longswords could do the trick, too, but then the Meso player mixes Scorpions and the fight is less than ideal for your Longswords. Also, Longswords are similar to Knights in that they are hard to mass (food-intensive), can’t catch up with EW (so Meso player can kite and convert them slowly), and you need to keep 10+ at every entrance of your base because otherwise the Meso player just changes angle of attack. In practice, all of this means that Longswords generally don’t work.
With my suggestion of removing bonus vs Siege, mass Scorpions would hold 1 of the possible strats of Meso at bay, while also being relatively immune to Redemption (cuz cheaper than Mangonel).
I won’t even comment on winrates, only noobs think that winrates alone indicate if a civ is OP. Meso is definitely high tier and OP in Empire Wars according to most pro players anyway.
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Win rate is objective stats. More convincing than your subjective opinion.
Aztecs +3 bonus is actually comparable to Vikings free wheelburrow + handcart. It spreads out and starts from dark age, I would not say it is average bonus.
I disagree that eagles are the main problem - otherwise Incas should be much OP than it currently is. In fact I don’t think you can go castle eagle rush as Incas even tho you are ahead, say get a 2 vill lead, while Aztecs can streamline eagle all day. Mayans eagles on castle is pretty lackluster too.
I fully relate to this. Eagle Warrior fanboys are bothersome, even though the unit is insanely versatile and partially broken, taking into account some meso civ bonusses.
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have no problem with them. git gud
Meanwhile pros consider them s tier (mayans and aztecs)
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and what’s wrong with that? lol.
It means they are so strong they are considered better then an a tier civ. Usually the goal is to have no s tier civs.
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well people tend to go archers instead of militia line all the time. it’s their fault.
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Even pros consider them too strong. Are pros to stupid to know how to react to what a civ is doing?
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pros almost never use militia line though. only one i know is hera
Yeah sorry. You fail if you honestly think that.
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I’ll start by saying I think meso civs are fine currently.
I was recently considering one idea for them that wouldn’t necessarily be a buff or nerf, but would affect their power spike. What if Eagles had much lower gold cost (maybe 20-30) and much higher food cost (maybe 50-60).This would make them harder to spam in the early game, where food is scarce and gold is abundant. Basically the same limitation as going all out with Infantry or Scouts, it will delay Castle and Imperial Age. They are basically the Hussar equivalent in late game anyway (monk, skirmisher and siege counter, good for raiding villagers, with some use against small archer groups), so it’s strange how different the resource split is.
The high gold cost also makes meso struggle in post imp, since they also lack cavalry. In 1v1 trash wars you end up having to spam the market, and they eventually cost about 300 wood + 20 food.
That being said, both Aztecs and Mayans have good win rates in long games. I’m guessing this is due to their amazing Skirmishers. Incas are the only one with a lower win rate in games over 40 mins. Maybe replacing some gold cost with food would be interesting just for Incas (not full trash unit like Malay swordsmen, more like half gold cost like Poles have for knights but also requiring extra food).
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