How many more civs CAN we realistically get?

With the announcement of LotW both this forum and reddit have been flooded with threads about possible new civs and DLCs, so I want to bring a different question to the table regarding the same topic:

How many more civs can we realistically get in terms of design space?
I mean, if we want to keep simmetrical civilizations that are balanced and unique while not going too crazy or to gimmicky with their design there’s no way we can get to 80 total civs like some people here would like.

As was shown with Sicilians and Burgundians in order to give new civs an identity they had to be given mechanics that the game has never seen before, like AoE3 shipments and combat mechanics. As T90 said about burgundians: “This civ looks like every crazy idea my 11 years old cousin has for the game”. And still some people claim that Burgundias are Franks 2.

How crazy can we go with new bonuses, units and techs? Where’s the line when a civ no longer feels belongig to AoE2? Is it bad if a new civ is similar to an existing one?

Let me know your thoughts.

P.S.: Try not to go off-topic and write what civs you would like to see included to the game. That’s something exhaustivly debated in other threads.

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My opinion:
I would say that there’s design space for about 5 new civilizations. More than that would need to design a way too unique civilization that is not healthy for the balance and (imo) enjoyment of the game.
Maybe if we get super creative and accepts some innovative mechanics, it could be extended to 13 civs, reaching a total of 50 civs (a nice number for a total) and closing the multiplayer content door forever, keeping only balance updates. But those are just hopes, I doubt there is space for so many civs.

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I’ve seen mods going up to a total of 44. If we combine those different mods, I could realistically see a grand maximum of 50 civs which could be balanced on most maps. More would probably get really hard.

Depends also if you count stuff like “Receives +100 wood +50 stone after each Age up” as unique civ or not and also if you’re open towards more radical stuff like Feudal TCs and others.

On the other hand, there’s clearly unused stuff like smaller farms or “Automatically researched Blacksmith upgrades after the Age they’re available”.

To be honest, I might maybe be the exception with liking the rather radical civ boni like the Cuman TCs as well as being fine with more conservative stuff".

A civ which would have artificial limits everywhere on the other hand would not feel like it would belong to Age of Empires II.

I see a lot of potential in regards to regional units like Eagle Warrior or Battle Elephants which have been not explored thoroughly enough right now IMO. There are also some interesting tech tree combinations left involving those units too so there’s still potential for more. I think though that the Heavy Cav theme as well as the Cav Archer theme is pretty much done.

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depends

we can get up to 45 at maximum, I just hope that the future ones still respect the aoe logics of weight reasons to be represented.

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Well, not 100% original, but still can get logicalthings done. Xbow and Arbalesters tech at 50% discount, same with EBE/eagle/SL/Heavy Camel/Heavy CA. Eco techs cost 50% less.
Military buildings cost %50 less wood… You can come with logical bonuses, yet not 100% original.

I would say we can get 5 more civs like that (2 asian, 2 African, 1 American)

I would say it depends on what major or relevant powers still not covered. I agree that additional African, Asian, and American civilisations could be looked at to fill the void, providing they have something worthwhile going for them. A max 50 is something I could see but 5 more might be the limit, we’ll see?

I… would even go one step further and cut certain ones that might not fit the bill, such as the Huns but I recognise that it would be regressive and controversial to remove an established civ. They barely fit into the Middle Ages but we also have some that survive beyond the cutoff point but it won’t happen.

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You know, after the discussion about the new civs, I’ve realised that we, members of the community, see the “not belonging to AoE2” matter widely different. I’m fine with serjeants able to build, I like it, but think the charge attack is along Flemish Revolution the most gimmicky this game has ever had; while others like flemish rev but thinks serjeants are too much.
So I guess it will be difficult to agree about what belongs to the game and what doesn’t. What is certain is that these new civs have shaken the honeycomb and sparkled discussions about the topic.

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A less extreme approach could be rename them to avars or khazars, keeping the civ as it is. But with the years people have grown to love even the huns’ name.

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  1. Like in a fighting game.
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My favourite argument so far

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Realistically, we can get at least 13 more, easily.
Maybe 23 if the devs want to give them civ bonii that are really out there.

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Realistically it all depends on the devs. There are so much more to be honest if we going Europa Universalis route. I think 50 would be the best though with updates too on all the existing civs.

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2 civs, I warrant. Mississippian civ and some African civ (dunno which one. Maybe the Bantu people or Kongolese people?)

Maybe 3 new civs if the devs can squeeze in ONE more European civ, but in my own forum post, Future DLCs and the argument for/against NEW Civs - Age of Empires II: DE / II - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum
I state that I seriously doubt any more European peoples than can feasible be added as “new civs”.

Mississippian civ: bonuses can be lowered food cost on ALL military units (but they retain their full gold cost…think like the Portuguese gold reduction bonus but for food instead of gold), some other eco bonus similar to the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. And that they get faster moving foot archers
And this civ can be able to train the Eagle Warrior, and the Iroquois Warrior (and maybe an Elite variant of the Iroquois Warrior)

Very much agree. After Tartars and Cumans, AoE2 has been “cavalry archered-out”.

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Cumans were the first non aoe 2 civ imo.
2nd tc in feudal is an aberration

This would actually have to be a very small discount, as until the late Imperial Age, Food is much more of a limiting factor to amy sizes than Gold is.
I could see it work, but seeing as Indians already did not have Knight because Knights + Food discount Villager Boom would be too OP, it will need A LOT of fine tuning.

Just offering some ideas. :wink:

If Mississippian civ were to happen, I want them to be good but not down right OP, or pitifully bad.

It is already amazing that the Meso-American civs can hold their own against much more historically advanced civs, like the Spanish, the Byzantines, the Saracens…even though historically, the Meso-Americans stood almost no chance of overcoming the advanced militaries of the European-Asian-African civilizations.
(just look at the continents of Africa, Europe, and Asia: all connected! While poor South and North America only had each other to exchange ideas and innovations, the Asian-European-African continents were well ahead the rest of the world in terms of economic and military innovation [with the exception of some of the most isolated parts of Asia and Africa])

Well, it is a game, everything has to have a fighting chance, otherwise it would be a very poorly designed game.
This is why they already took a lot of artistic license when designing those civs, with Blacksmiths, Crossbows, Pikes, and other elements they never actually had.

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We already have to many civs in my opinion. Please dont add new civs anymore.

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No, more civs, more!

As a medievalist, I want at least 80% of the relevant kingdoms and empires at the time, which meanst at least 50 civs, and that is undercutting it.

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The potential number of civs we could get on a design basis will rely on:

  1. Available bonuses (e.g. camel attack speed, camel % hp, archer attack etc.)
  2. Relevant medieval civilizations
  3. The possibility of adding new mechanics (e.g. creating herdable animals and garrisoning them in mills/pens for a trickle of food or trade workshops with garrisoned villagers producing resources or packable buildings or hiring mercenaries from Gaia buildings etc.)

In my view, we should add at least the remaining empires: Tibetan, Pala, Chola, Ghorids, Jurchen and Kanem. From then on some important kingdoms. In this case, we can add new mechanics and remaining civ bonuses and wrap the game up in terms of content.

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