How to add the AoE1 civilisations to the AoE2 dataset (like Chronicles)

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

2 years ago I mad a thread about How to add the AoE1 civilsiations to AoE2 for unranked but that was before the release of Chronicles and 3 Kingdoms, things have changed since then.

Why?

Currently the Age of Empires 1 (Return of Rome) content uses a different Dateset that is loaded when you click on the RoR tab in the main Menu. Chronicles on the other had uses the same Dataset as AoE2 so there is no loading screen and all the AoE2 content is available in Chronicles and vice versa.

This makes Chronicles a lot more convenient to use. You can even mix in AoE2 civilisations if you want to.
You want to recreate the Celtic invasion of Ancient Greece? Just use the AoE2 Celts!
You need some Scythian units for your Hunnic campaign? Just use the Chronicles units!

Especially with Chronicles the argument that AoE1 covers a different time period and the content would be out of place in AoE2 doesn’t make sense anymore. Chronicles civs, units and buildings are the same time period as AoE1 ones.

How?

It will be a new tab in the main menu. The civilisations are added the the AoE2 Dataset and mostly use reskinned AoE2 and Chronicles units. In some case the Chronicles skins are used.

Of course those civilisations would not be available in ranked, neither against normal AoE2 civilisations now Chronicles civilisations.

Buildings and Units

Economic

Town Centre

  • Same as AoE2/Chronicles.
  • Return of Rome Villager skins

Granary

  • Replaces Mill
  • Costs 120 Wood
  • 3x3 Size
  • Researches Farm, Wall and Tower upgrades
  • Drop of for all Food

Storage Pit

  • Replaces Mining Camp, Lumber Camp and Blacksmith
  • Cost 120 Wood
  • 3x3 Size
  • Researchers Blacksmith, Wood, Gold and Stone upgrades
  • Drop of for Gold, Stone, Wood and Meat (same as Mule Cart)

House

Same as AoE2. Provides 5 population, not 4.

Farm

Same as AoE2.

Market

  • Same as AoE2
  • No Economic Technologies
  • Return of Rome Trade Cart appearance

Port

  • Same as Chronicles but no free Lembos
  • Return or Rome Fishing Boat/Ship skin
  • Return of Rome Light/Heavy Transport Ship skin
  • Return of Rome Trade Boat/Ship skin

Military

Barracks

Clubman Line

  • Based on Milita Line
  • Clubman → Short Swordsman → Broad Swordsman → Long Swordsman →Legionary
  • Cost: 50 Good 15 Gold (-5 Gold compared to AoE2)
  • All other stats the same as AoE2

Spearman Line

  • Same as Chronicles
  • Spearman → Guardsman → Elite Guardsman

Slinger

  • Same as Skirmisher but Infantry and Archer armour class
  • Has Elite Slinger Upgrade in Bronze Age (Castle Age)

Technologies

  • Arson
  • Gambeson (Renamed to Tower Shields or something)
  • Squires (Renamed to Baggage Carriers)
  • Logistics (Barracks Units (excluding Condottiero) cost 0.5 population)

Summery

The biggest difference compared to AoE2 is that the Skirmisher is trainer in the Barracks and that Barracks units only cost 0.5 population.

Archery Range

Bowman Line

  • Same as Archer Line
  • Bowman → Improved Bowman → Composite Bowman

Horse Archer Line

  • Same as Cavalry Archer
  • Horse Archer → Heavy Horse Archer

Elephant Archer Line

  • Same as in AoE2
  • Does not replace the Horse Archer Line
  • New skin for Elite Elephant Archer

Chariot Archer

There are many options so I’m not sure what would be best

  • Trash Archer Line (hard to balance)
  • Ratha clone
  • Completely new unit that has some new unique purpose

Technologies

  • Parthian Tactics
  • Thumb Ring

Summery

The biggest difference to AoE2 is that the Skirmisher is not available at the Archery Range. Also Elephant and Horse Archers are available at the same time.

Stable

Scout Line

  • Same as Chronicles
  • AoE1 Scout Skin replaces the Scout Cavalry skin
  • Light Cavalry and Raider have the same skin as Chronicles

Cavalry Line

  • Based on Knight Line
  • Cavalry → Heavy Cavalry → Cataphract
  • Cost: 70 Food 80 Gold (+10 Food and +5 Gold compared to Knight Line)
  • +5/+6/+7 vs. Infantry

War Elephant Line

  • Same as Battle Elephant from AoE2
  • War Elephant → Armoured Elephant

Camel Rider

  • Same as AoE2
  • New skin for Heavy Camel Rider

Chariot Line

There are many options so I’m not sure what would be best

  • Trash Unit similar to Scout Cavalry Line
  • Ratha clone
  • Chronicles War Chariot clone

Technologies

  • Bloodlines (renamed to Nobility)
  • No Husbandry

Summery

The biggest difference compared to AoE2 is that the Cavalry Line is worse then the Knight Line in most matchups.

Siege Workshop

Battering Ram Line

  • Same as Chronicles

Ballista Line

  • Same as Scorpion Line
  • Ballista → Helepolis

Stone Thrower Line

  • Same as Mangonel Line
  • Stone Thrower → Catapult → Heavy Catapult
  • Does not have the extra projectiles that only do 1 damage

Summery

This building is the most similar to AoE2 of all the Military buildings. No Bombard Cannon though.

Siege Tower

  • Same as Chronicles

Shipyard

  • Same as Chronicles
  • No Return of Rome skins because the Chronicles skins look so similar

Academy

  • Replaces Castle
  • Does not have an attack
  • Does not cost Stone
  • Costs 200 Wood

Hoplite Line

  • Based on Chronicles Hoplite Line
  • Replaces Unique Unit
  • Hoplite → Phalangite → Centurion
  • 60 Food 30 Gold (+5 Food compared to Chronicles)
  • +5/+6/+7 Infantry Armour class (negate bonus damage from Cavalry Line)
  • Centurion +10 HP, +2 Attack and +1/+1 max armour from Aura (same as Spartan UT)

Palintonon

  • Same as Chronicles

Technologies

  • Conscription
  • Sappers
  • Spies/Treason

Summery

Does host the Castle Technologies and the Hoplite Line but doesn’t have defensive benefits. Also does not have unique units or Technologies, for now.

Other buildings

Government Centre

  • Same as the Academy from Chronicles (AoE2 University)

Temple

  • Same as Chronicles
  • Priest instead of Priestess

Watch Tower Line

  • Same as AoE2/Chronicles
  • Watch Tower → Sentry Tower → Guard Tower

Ballista Tower

  • Replaces Bombard Tower
  • 50 Gold 125 Stone (-50 Gold compared to Bombard Tower)
  • Does have the same attack as Heavy Scorpion
  • Benefits from Heated Shot, Ballistics and Archer Blacksmith Upgrades
  • Does not benefit from Arrow Slits

Wall Line

  • Same as Chronicles
  • Stone Wall → Fortified Wall

Palisade

  • Same as Chronicles

Gates

  • Same as Chronicles

Outpost

  • Same as Chronicles

Game Start

Same start as AoE2 but without a Scout. This will make the start a little slower.

Maps made for this game mode start without Sheep but extra Hunt and Berries.

Overall comparison to AoE2/Chronicles Civilisations

They are mostly the same strength as Chronicles civilisations. Cavalry is a little weaker, Infantry is a little better and Archers are pretty much the same.

The main difference is the leak of scouting in the beginning and the leak of a Castle for Midgame defence.

Unique Units and Technologies

The game mode would of course be more fun with Unique Units and Technologies but they wouldn’t be necessary. Or course the balance would be very different with those being available.

Architecture

AoE1 buildings have a different visual scale compared to AoE2. Technically many buildings like houses (2x2), military buildings (3x3) or temples (3x3) are the same size as AoE2 but they visually use up more space on those tiles. Some buildings like Town Centres (4x4 vs. 3x3) are also just bigger.

This means the Architecture Sets need to be reworked and/or use parts of the Chronicles Architecture Sets.

First step

How about start by porting over the AoE1/RoR land units as scenario editor assets to Chronicles. This way we have more units to play with without them having to make a single new sprite.

They can just copy AoE2/Chronicles unit stats, mostly the same way I mentioned earlier.

Some ideas though:

  • Legionary = Legionary (AoE2)
  • Cataphract = Elite Cataphract (AoE2)
  • Chariot (Archer) = Elite Rahta with the ability to switch between both versions.
  • Scythe Chariot = Elite War Chariot (Chronicles)

We already have the Priest and the Broad Swordsman (as Heavy Swordsman) in AoE2, 30 units to go.

5 Likes
2

Hi Skadidesu!

Great suggestions, I would love to see Return of Rome being fully incorporated into AoE2, today it’s rather weird (and also a bit sad) to play RoR.

I would like to see AoE evolve in a different direction, though. It shouldn’t be just a “Chronicles but with Bronze Age civs”, in my opinion.

2 Likes
3

I want Chronicles but with Bronze Age civs though.

Bronze Age Spin-off idea

But that’s a different story

2 Likes
4

Oh yes, that would be really cool, but not RoR haha

5

I wrote some ideas a long time ago, I’ll translate them to English so I can share them here.

Unique Units

UUs are a core feature of “Age of …” games since AoE2, every game of the franchise have them, including AoM, so it’s natural to add them to RoR on a new expansion.

To don’t change the game too much, and to not make things just because AoE2 does things in a particular way, I would like Unique Units to be more like AoM or AoE4 UUs:

  • Unique upgrades to existing lines (actually the same as AoE2’s Legionary or Imperial Camel); or
  • Unique lines to replace existing ones.

Both options could be used at the same time.

Macedonians, for example, could have Pezhaiteros-line instead of the Hoplite-line, and also a unique upgrade to cavalry instead of Heavy Cavalry and Cataphract, the (Elite) Companion Cavalry that has bonus against archers, instead of against infantry.

Hoplite-line: too Greek

Overall, the Hoplite-line should have a regional variant for each region, as it is implied by the different Academy icon for each architecture set. But it should have different stats, not only a reskin.

For some civs, like Greeks, it could be the only heavy infantry option.

Persians would train Chronicles’ Immortals from the Academy, instead of Hoplites.

Ballista/Hellepolis

Reworked to be a Scorpion reskin. It’s the best design for a siege unit like this, even the AoE4 equivalent got reworked to be like the AoE2 Scorpion.

Spearman-line

The same as you said, the same as AoE2 and Chronicles.

Slingers

They definitely need one or even two line upgrades, because they remained relevant and getting improved until the end of RoR’s timeline.

Graphically, the costumes would change, and the projectiles would change from simples stones to ceramic bicones and then made of iron instead of ceramics.

Gameplay-wise is the hard part :joy:

I thought about being a Skirmisher reskin, but I would like to add them separately… an AoE4’s Crossbowman reskin, but I don’t think it would fit RoR…

So, I decided with a bonus against infantry like Inca Slingers, but with a bit more damage in general because of the line upgrades. They would get countered by Archers because of low pierce armor, but would be good against Skirmishers, as they wouldn’t have the archer armor class and would deal melee damage.

Some civs would have a tech to replace their stone cost to gold cost (the name can be inspired by Balearic mercenary slingers), so it would be easier to train them from the third age onwards.

  • Slinger (like current unit)
  • Improved Slinger (more bonus damage and range)
  • Heavy Slinger (more base and bonus damage and more range)

Peltast-line (Skirmisher reskin)

Added to the game, as said above about Slingers.

Counters Archer-line and is good against mounted archers (if they engage), and is trash, the same as in AoE2.

Get countered by Slingers and cavalry and other fast melee units.

Clubman/Axeman-line

Remain as trash units, but for Egyptians and neighboring civs will have acces to regional line upgrades:

  • Epsilon Axeman (the same weapon used by AoM’s Egyptians Axeman): an ancient type of war axe
  • Khopesh Warrior (maybe “Khopesh Axeman”): similar to an epsilon axe

So, 4 unit levels. This two new levels would cost some gold to upgrade.

Spammable trash unit. Less bonus to cavalry than the Spearman, but doesn’t have the Spearman armor class, so it gets no bonus damage from Skirmishers and Archers. A small bonus damage against buildings.

Civs with access to them would lack upgrades to the Spearman-line, as being a soft replacement to them.

I think all the rest is the same as you said.

What I would reassure is that the Archer-line should be the same stats as the Archer-line in Chronicles, even having a gold cost from the beginning and don’t have the Archer disconnected from the Improved Bowman. Composite Bowman in the last (Iron) age.

The same to say about cavalry archers, they’re OP in RoR but more balanced in AoE2.

I’ll think more about the Chariot Archer, don’t have a solution right now.

War Chariots are great being the same as in Chronicles.

6

Could be interesting to have this new counter triangle:

Archer >> Slinger >> Skirmisher >> Archer

1 Like
7

But it impossible, funtion is different, although I love this idea. But need Ares back to Sparta. Or just leave it stay back what thing they are. Dont need mix.

8

At what point is thus just a 2nd Chronicles? If we give the Greeks, Macedonians and Persians their Chronicles UUs and maybe give some of the Mercenaries to other civs like Minoans.

The main reason I decided on not adding Skirmishers is because I wanted to add Elephant Archers and Chariot Archers to the Archery Range without having too many units there, so I essentially moved the Skirmisher to the Barracks.

Honestly the actual Skirmisher could also just be at the barracks.

I had another idea.

Barebones AoE1 in AoE2

Add 5 civilisations to the dataset, one for each Architecture set. Make them not available in lobbies unless you select “All civilisations”.

They all get all of the AoE1 buildings and units with the original AoE1 costs. There are no civilisation bonuses.

All other units and buildings default to Chronicles visuals.

But

  • The Villagers have AoE2 collection rates
  • The units have AoE2 stats
  • The buildings have AoE2 technologies (like Blacksmith upgrades and resource collection ones)

Those civilisations are mainly their to make your own custom scenarios. You can just enable other units from Chronicles or base AoE2 if you want to be able to train them. Or you disable units to simulate whatever AoE1 civ you want to simulate.

You can’t really mod in civilisations into AoE2 so you can’t really do that as a mod.

Why are you so obsessed with Ares for Sparta?

Why do you think Ares had any significance for Sparta over other Olympic gods? Just because they were good at war doesn’t mean that Ares was particularly important for them.

Maybe you should do some actual research before demanding random things based on pop culture.

1 Like
9

Some civs are present in both games, so some overlap is natural.

What I meant is that Chronicles starts from AoE2, make a reskin to base units, buildings and techs, and start adding new features on top of that.

I would want for a successor of RoR to start from itself and add new features on top. Some will be borrowed from AoE2, some from other titles, and hopefully get something original and fun in the end.

AoE1 is the older sibling but in the same time is the least unique from the others, as they evolved from it. Now it’s time to AoE1 (from RoR) to learn from the others and also grow.

Wait… you want RoR assets to be easily used from AoE2’s and Chronicles’ Editor, but not to be fully playable?

I thought you would do this by making RoR a better game mode.

1 Like
10

That would be the minimum. Basically no work on the side of the developers but a lot of potential for scenario creators.

I do want a better RoR but honestly not sure how I would want it. I think that’s something that needs a lot of testing and inputs from a lot of people to get the balance between feeling like AoE1 and feeling like AoE2 right.

1 Like
11

I really like this proposal, AOE1 deserves, more attention and more modding options, especially because it’s very unlikely we receive more Dlcs for this mode. Right now, modding return of Rome is a bit frustrating, because:

A) Very few modable civilizations slots, since the maximum civilizations in civilization.json file only support is the same number of official civilization of this mode( only 17), when in the main data-set we have up to 56 (if we have all dlcs, and counting with the 6 chronicles civilizations).

B) Very few assets (so we need to manually, copy and move for example some aoe2 units\buildings just to have more options .

C) Few icons, so we need to manually update the respective materials .jsons to have more options. And repeat the process every time they update that’s files .

But I also understand copying and all the Aoe1 entries and civilizations can possibly mess the current data-set, so I have another proposal:

Make AOE1 return of Rome more easily modable:

A: Both AoE1 and Aoe2 datasets having the same maximum civilization slots, its the same game and engine, this don’t mean the need to create dozens of new civilizations, just let modders tor create new entries until the main data set cap. I don’t understand why AOE1 are more restrictive.

B: Both of modes gain the same number of assets in their graphic and unit entries (just copy and hide those who are not relevant, like the Aoe2 units with exists in ROR dataset.

C: Both of modes use the same material files, or having more blank icons slots to be able to easily replace new icons.

D: (OPTIONAL) be able to buy return of Rome without needing to buy the base game ( in that case buyers will only access the ROR mode). This mode need to be more accessible, because Age of empires Definitive edition 1 is now deprecated.

1 Like
12

:))) it is real, but :)) I dont use buy any worse DLC relate to it. Just request. Someone want to bring 3k to this worse dlc so :))) just say no because I spend a few my money for worth thing not worse thing. Thank :))))

13

Agree, many people said they want to try ROR but need buy AOE 2 base game so they reject both :)))

14

I’m confused about what it is you’re trying to achieve with this suggestion. If you want to reduce loading times when switching between Return of Rome and regular AoE2 (which is what you seem to be saying you want to do here), then this suggestion won’t achieve that because what you’re suggesting isn’t Return of Rome – it’s its own thing.

If you want to mix RoR units with AoE2 and Chronicles units, then your suggestion seems to go way beyond what you’d need for that. And if you want crossplay in skirmish games, then your RoR civs will be at such a disadvantage without castles that it would be hardly worth it.

I must be missing something, but I don’t really get the motivation.

AoE1 starts approximately 7500 years before Chronicles, so no, this is false.

More like they were mediocre at war, but supposedly obsessed with it.

15

Sorry I have been asking for different “levels” of adding AoE1 to AoE2.

  1. Just add the units only
  2. Add the civs as black slates for custom scenarios
  3. Add the civs fully but with their own balance (like Chronicles)

The times is not the issue (just mildly annoying) it’s that you can’t access the assets from the other dataset.

That would be nice to have even if it’s unbalanced. Chronicles civs are not balanced against normal AoE2 civs either, especially on water.

Being weaker can be a feature like an alternative to handicap. A lot of people just play single player of coop vs. AI so they can just adjust the AI difficulty accordingly. Having an enemy without Castles can be nice too because then you don’t need to bring too much siege.

All of Chronicles is within the time period of AoE1.

Pretty much all AoE1 units would fit well into Chronicles. All Iron Age unit obviously fit, all Tool Age units work well as “barbarian” or “bandit” units. Bronze Age units often don’t have that much Bronze on it either so they look good enough. The Broad Swordsman (as Heavy Swordsman), as the unit with the most Bronze, is already in AoE2 anyway.

1 Like
16

Ok, I understand. So personally I can see the value of 1 (mostly for mixing in with Chronicles stuff in scenarios), and I’d say 3 already exists in the form of Return of Rome (but obviously without crossplay of any sort). 2 seems like it would be useful for modding (in general I think it would be good to have some extra civ slots or a way to mod in new civs without replacing old ones) but I don’t see much use for mixing AoE1 civs with AoE2 ones.

One issue is that the AoE1 building scale is very different from the AoE2 building scale. That said, AoE2 now has several very underscaled buildings (Bengali and Gurjara wonders, East Asian castles) so evidently some people (including the current devs) don’t care about that.

Fair enough. I am quite surprised that I haven’t seen any complaints about the Chronicles civs not being balanced relative to the others, so maybe this would be fine too.

Sure, but you were talking about

But, as I said, AoE1 starts about 7500 years before Chronicles – so even with Chronicles/AoE2 crossplay available, adding in AoE1 civs extends the timeline massively.

(As an aside, I do object to the way the Chronicles civs have been integrated into AoE2 despite being from a different time period – although that’s less to do with crossplay, and more because they have medieval technologies in their tech trees.)

17

Also it just feels odd to get AoE1 Persians, Macedonians and Greeks with Chronicles

Its literally the same period with similar-ish armies for all three civd

18

It would be weird to be able to choose between Persians, Achaemenids and Persians.

AoE1 Persians are quite similar to AoE2 Persians – I guess they’re mostly based on Sassanids, since they have good elephants and cataphract but no chariots or hoplites.

Persians – especially ones based on Sassanids – seem like a bit of an odd choice for AoE1 given the original intended timeline. Medes or Elamites would have made more sense.

1 Like
19

With 3. I mean more AoE2 like gameplay and balance. For example AoE2 resource collection rate and AoE2 unit stats. The game balance/speed/feel of AoE1 is worse then AoE2 in my opinion and I think it’s probably the main reason RoR wasn’t successful.

I never noticed how “bad” AoE1 is until RoR because AoE1DE was so clunky to use that I was just constantly annoyed by the path finding.

More like mixing AoE1 with Chronicles. Like Chronicles is completely missing Egypt and it doesn’t seem like they will be added in the next DLC or maybe ever.

That is certainly the biggest problem. Unit stats can relatively easily be fixed but sprites take a lot more work to change.

The Elephant scale is also a problem, other then that all the units can perfectly coexist.

I complained about it and others did to.

I think the main reason why not many did is because playing with a civ set that just has 3 civs is pretty boring. Even in a 2v2 one civ has to appear twice. Maybe now Chronicles only lobbies will become more popular.

yes, and? Technically the first age of AoE1 is longer then all other ages from all other age games combined because it could reach back into the Pleistocene.

AoE1 is also different in that half of the unit lines only start in Iron Age. The AoE1 and RoR campaigns also don’t actually treat the Bronze and Iron ages as what they are supposed to be. You play Sumerian scenarios in Iron age and Roman scenarios in Bronze Age. The technological and cultural differences between Bronze and Iron Age are bigger then between Iron Age and the Middle Ages.

I think they should have changed more too. I like that it’s in the same Dataset though so you can access all the assets of the other mode in the Editor. Chronicles uses a bunch of AoE2 units from time to time for example. AoE2 has not used Chronicles units yet, as far as I know though.

My main issues are:

  1. Infantry is even weaker as in AoE2 (no Gambesons for example)
  2. Cavalry is too strong because it’s identical to AoE2
  3. Forts are just Castles and therefor feel to Medieval
  4. Palintonons feel too powerful because they are just reskinned Trebuchets unlike the 3 Kingdoms civs that have their own weaker Trebuchets.
20

I’ve obviously misunderstood the argument you were trying to make if you think what I said isn’t obviously relevant to it. Feel free to try to reword that argument if you want me to understand it! (Or not if you don’t.)

I agree with all of these, although 2, 3 and 4 make gameplay sense if they want crossplay to work well. (Although they don’t make historical/thematic sense.) My main issues are with things like mangonel, wheelbarrow, heavy plough, plate barding, etc. – medieval technologies that are anachronistic in the Chronicles civs’ tech trees.