How to Balance the Turks Against Elephant Civilizations?

[DynasticPlanet5]

I feel the need to repeat. Making generic camels stronger vs elephants will also help Gujara stonks as well

[Doeswegotta]

A small addition of anti elephant damage will take the gurjara from beating elephants with camels all the way to beating elephants with camels - effectively changing nothing.

That aside, we’ve already added the conditions that;

@II.Selim

What about giving the same bonus to all camel units and then rebalancing the camel civilizations’ bonuses accordingly?

and

@Doeswegotta

Is there a civ bonus that could be swapped out for this? Say

Removed: Chemistry is free
Changed: Chemistry and gunpowder technologies cost -50%
Added: Knight line and camel units deal +3 damage other cavalry (+6 vs elephants)

A little nod to how the turks would use their own cavalry to protect janissary lines from heavy cav charges. Lets the otherwise generic cavaliers stand out a bit more, and camels get to be for the excessively strong cav units.

So this is purely in the context of what could be changed for the turks as the only other civ to lack pikemen.

[II.Selim]

Giving Turks an answer to elephants (and to some extent, strong camels) isn’t a buff — it’s a readjustment. It’s no different from fixing a bug.

As I mentioned, Turks weren’t intentionally designed to be helpless against elephant civilizations. That was never part of their identity, uniqueness, or balance philosophy. It just unintentionally happened after those civilizations were introduced.

There’s a reason why no new civ has been released with the same kind of weakness — because it would be incredibly unfair.

Also, do Gurjara camels really counter elephants cost-effectively? I read in another thread that even Hindustani camels struggle against them. If that’s true, then something is seriously wrong. Ideally, a fully upgraded generic camel should counter elephants in a cost-effective way.

Another option is to give Turks a new gold-based pikeman-type unit that trades well against elephants and camels.

[Pulikesi25]

@II.Selim

Because it is perhaps the most unbalanced unit after Elephant Archers, which will be even cheaper in the upcoming patch.

Its cheaper in terms of food and more expensive in terms of gold thereby making it affordable in castle age but harder to sustain in imp. Its a minimum necessary change to make them usable.

@II.Selim

It costs almost the same as a Hussar in total resources and has almost the same HP, but with less training time, more attack, more speed, and the added ability to block incoming projectiles.

No it doesn’t cost the same as Hussar, 30 gold is quite a lot for the later stages of the game. Market ratio becomes 100 food to 17 gold. And for the early stages of the game, its vulnerable to monks, costs nearly the same as light cav. Speed and dodge ability are the main trade-offs. Why will anyone ever produce that unit if its slower than light cav, costs 30 gold, nearly the same food and has less p.armor? It will become a complete garbage unit.

@II.Selim

I’d say they should at least lose Husbandry.

Civ already doesn’t have pikes, CA, last armor on skirms, siege engineers for canons. Eco has been nerfed. Castle unit can’t kill anything other than infantry and even to kill infantry you need like 20 minimum with both attack upgrades. Bonus for camels in castle age has also been nerfed and they just do 2 damage extra against other camels, so not that pop efficient. Given all this, if you remove husbandry, 100% guaranteed it will become a useless bottom 5 civ along with the newly nerfed Sicilians, fellow DLC civ Dravidians.

Lastly I can see your bias as someone who probably prefers playing Turks. But matching really well against Turks or any one particular civ doesn’t imply a civ is broken or OP. Gurjaras have overall 50% winrate, worse winrates against many civs. They’re average.

@II.Selim

Halberdier deals 14 damage per second to Cavalries. Meanwhile, Heavy Camel deals 14.5 damage per second to Cavalries.

However, a fully upgraded generic Halberdier deals 23.33 damage per second to Elephants, while Heavy Camel deals just 14.5.

Halberdiers and Camels are almost identical when it comes to inflicting damage to Cavalries, but why don’t they deal the same damage to Elephants as well?

Shouldn’t generic FU Camels deal the same damage as well?

No they shouldn’t. Your argument is valid but the right way to address it is to reduce the bonus damage dealt by halberdiers from 60 to 50. Majority of the gold cavalry units move at 1.49 or 1.54 speed and cost 100-135 net resources while elephants move at 0.99-1.09 speed and cost 180 resources. So there’s quite some downside for elephants and they should die significantly slower against halbs as well compared to other cavalry units.

@II.Selim

If Heavy Camels had a +17 bonus damage against the Elephant armor class, they would deal 23 damage per second to Elephants.

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In conclusion, giving Turk Camels +17 bonus damage against Elephants would be like giving them a FU generic Halberdier.

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However, a FU Pikeman deals 18.33 damage per second to Elephants. So here’s my proposal to solve the issue:

I’d say a Turk Camel should deal a minimum of +12 bonus damage against the Elephant armor class, so it would be similar to a Pikeman. And +5 more against Camels.

Like many others suggested, some moderate additional damage vs elephant armor class should be given to gunpowder units or bombard towers as a second effect of artillery. Not for generic or Turkish heavy camels.

[II.Selim]

So generic camels aren’t meant to be even a soft counter to elephants cost-effectively? Because even generic pikemen deal much more damage to elephants.

@Pulikesi25

Like many others suggested, some moderate additional damage vs elephant armor class should be given to gunpowder units or bombard towers as a second effect of artillery.

Good suggestion. It has the potential to solve the issue.

Though, the Shrivamsha Rider + Camel combo would still remain challenging to counter. At least it’s fine to have one bad matchup.

[II.Selim]

Or the Turks could get the Steppe Lancer, and the unit could have an attack bonus against elephants. Steppe Lancer civilizations are already known for having weak spearman lines and monks.

[Apocalypso4826]

How about you play a different civilization against elephant civs?

[AbuzzJam4677680]

Vikings should get camels with bonus vs elephants to be fair 11

[Doeswegotta]

I’d be happy to trade the camel line for the steppe lancer altogether and getting some anti cavalry damage from a civ perk or tech.

The turks always felt less less ‘turk’ and too ottoman.

[II.Selim]

The issue can easily and fairly be solved by giving Turks Pikemen—but that would ruin their identity. Turks were designed to deal with cavalry using Camels, and I’d prefer to preserve their original arsenal.

[Doeswegotta]

See, what I dont like about the camels is that it closes the door on so many things without being enough.

And it only makes sense with the Ottomans, not the Oghuz or Seljuks which are supposed to be the bulk of the civ in the time period.

I get the idea of making counters stronger against what they counter, but leaning too heavily into camels as Turks just feels bizzare.

Most camel civs have pikemen anyway. Lets just commit to adding that so there can be a valid scorpion based comp - maybe trade that champion away for it to keep the ‘less infantry’ theme of the turks.

[Horapallas]

The question is also if Turks should get a trash unit to counter elephants. I think it’s fine if not.

Then, if we acknowledge the current situation to be an issue as, although rare, way too one-sided, I think there are two solutions: buff (gold) units of the Turks against elephants, or have a new generic anti-elephant bonus.

• Buffing Turks: can be directly buffing Janissaries. I guess that would work, and I have nothing against a +5 anti-elephant bonus for Elite Janissary. It could also be a civil bonus (e.g. on camels, gunpowder, cavalry archers or scorpions). Or included in the Imperial UT. I think if Turks are to be specifically buffed, then it should only apply to Janissaries OR heavy camel. With a preference for the former.
• Buffing a generic unit: Two solutions. (I) Buffing the unit stats directly. Then I really really think it should not be camels given how camel civs already other advantages in general against elephants. So… scorpions would make sense. A good (additional) +5 bonus against elephants from scorpions would work. And Turks get heavy scorpion. Monks could work, but it’s too generic, so no. (II) New tech for camels (or… else) to specifically cause anti-elephant damage.

[II.Selim]

Janissaries need at least 10% more accuracy and 5 food or gold cost reduction.

It’s ridiculous that Janissaries have only 50% accuracy while Hand Cannoneers have 75%. With that fix, Janissaries would be fine.

I see people mentioning that even Hindustani camels don’t counter elephants. I think that’s an oversight. Even a fully upgraded generic camel should be able to counter elephants. I see no reason why they shouldn’t deal more damage to elephants than Pikemen, especially considering camels cost a lot of gold.

[Horapallas]

I mean it’s okay that not all units counters function in the same way. Also, I don’t think elephants are scared of camels like horses are, but may be wrong.

[II.Selim]

You’re right. But camels are already dealing bonus damage to elephants because elephants have the cavalry armor class. They just don’t deal extra damage to the elephant armor class.

So realistically, camels should deal zero bonus damage against them — but that’s not the case in the game right now.