How to counter Gurjaras?

[GermanAttorney8]

@Lepigozzus

Have you considered a full castle age pike+siege (both mangonels and scorpions) push?

I have tried full pikemen rush and died to siege defence unfortunately

[casusincorrabil]

@GermanAttorney8

I have tried full pikeman actually

One general issue with this is also - and that’s how I think gurjaras should be played - that infantry and especially pikes die heavily to archers. And their eco bonus synergizes so well with archer openings aswell. So make sure you first have something to deal with their archers - for example by getting a bigger archer mass like @elizakolmakov proposed. Ofc this only works if you can actually outmass them (or maybe plan to make 1 range archers + 1 range skirms from the beginning or something. Even if it delays your feudal time a lot setting this up. And you need to be prepared that gurjaras will have a really strong castle timing behind this and will try to raid you with shrivamshas. Alternatively you can also just try to tower defend vs them but then you will most likely face an ele ram rush…

You’re absolutely right with your assessment that the archer openers of gurjaras are really hard to deal with. That’s why I proposed the openers that are kinda “counter” archer openers.

[Davyman3583]

@GermanAttorney8

t is really difficult to execute, if Gurjaras found your MAA, their archer will pop out before you reach their base, making your MAA useless and tower infinitely harder to get (19pop archers), so it’s really difficult unless you can have faster-than-21pop MAA.

Well they have 1 or 2 archers out and these can slowly kite your maa but that’s usually not enough to threaten your forward vils. To deny the tower they need double range opening and even then with some luck you can get it up. And the double range opening is super bad imo as that just gets countered by full wall skirm defense.

@GermanAttorney8

Well usually Gurjaras get to castle first, so they have the timing to transist into small number of archers - I think the issue is not the Shrivamshas but how fast they can get before I mass up xbows

That’s true and that’s why I think it’s so important to disrupt their dark age and continue pressuring in feudal. Because if they don’t pull ahead in tje early game they have very little bonus until late castle age when they can get to insanely strong arny comp.

[GermanAttorney8]

@Davyman3583

That’s true and that’s why I think it’s so important to disrupt their dark age and continue pressuring in feudal. Because if they don’t pull ahead in tje early game they have very little bonus until late castle age when they can get to insanely strong arny comp.

I guess so, from input here I think dark age aggression is really important, I will try drush more in general and see how it goes

[Green4uu]

Let’s try to create a theoretical scenario where you don’t roll something bad in Castle age like Byzantines or Turks, but you roll slightly above average, let’s say you roll Ethiopians or Poles. Let’s take Ethiopians vs Gurjaras as our “prototype matchup”.

Is full Crossbow and Fast Ballistics and mix in few Pikeman not good enough vs Gurjaras? What can Gurjaras do vs, say, 15 Crossbows and 4 Pikeman mixed in?

[casusincorrabil]

To say it easy:
better timing. They probably can hit you with shrivamsha before you have xbow + pikeman.

and your numbers are kinda low imo

edit: just saw you speak about eth. I think eth have kinda a big advantage here cause of the free pikeman upgrade

[GermanAttorney8]

@Green4uu

What can Gurjaras do vs, say, 15 Crossbows and 4 Pikeman mixed in?

I am not sure - but I think full skirm defend into farm into shrivamsha riders?

[Nheltarion]

They have probably opened archers as well and xbows + shrivansha destroy that in early castle

[FurtherLime7936]

Aren’t Bulgarians a good counterpick, with free militia line upgrades + Knights with insta researched blacksmith upgrades can go all in castle age?

[casusincorrabil]

all civs with good infantry + siege are kinda good counters vs gurjaras.

[GermanAttorney8]

@FurtherLime7936

Aren’t Bulgarians a good counterpick, with free militia line upgrades + Knights with insta researched blacksmith upgrades can go all in castle age?

It is a fair pick (one of the civ that can do 19/20P MAA), but still dies to pre-fedual full wall sometimes (in general, if you are facing Bulgarians and you can somehow tank the first wave in fedual, you are in advantage)

Unfortunately bulgarians don’t have xbows, so they die to camel + scrops too quickly.

(In particular, did Hoang face Gurjaras? how is hoang rush against Gurjaras?)

[Akoskaaa10]

Pure Gurjara Camels kill that easily

[FurtherLime7936]

How Gurjara camels kill Longsowrds?

[Akoskaaa10]

Ohh, too tired to read, but you usually have leftover archers to upgrade to crossbows.

[GermanAttorney8]

Let me elborate on how I view this matchup (disclaimer - I don’t really have much experience on this):

• MAA + skirm rush is really deadly combo for Bulgarians, if Bulgarians can gain enough advantage from the initial assault, best followup would be krepost + pikemen push, then Gurjaras have no answer.

• However, if Bulgarians failed to gain enough advantage, lets say both goes to Castle age at the same time, Gurjaras can focus on bloodline, +1def camel with full upgrade xbows. This is because Gurjaras camels shred even full upgrade castle age knights, and adding some scrops / xbows to deal with the infantry. (I would say camels first since knights are usually the damage dealer and longsword cannot really kill villagers fast enough).

• Since Bulgarians don’t have xbows, you cannot just rely on left-over archers to deal damage to Bulgarians after castle age.

• So the issue is how much damage can Bulgarians do? I think it varies, but sometimes I get good results from them (but really depends if my opponent can do pre-feudal fullwall or not)

[Green4uu]

@casusincorrabil

all civs with good infantry + siege are kinda good counters vs gurjaras.

how is siege even relevant vs Gurjaras tho? They play Crossbow short-term only. If Siege is good vs them, because they open Crossbow, then it’s auto-win vs pure Crossbow civs like Britons? Most civs have generic Siege in castle age, and generally bonuses that matter are focused on Stable or Archery range play, it’s very rare for Siege bonuses to shine in Castle age, they are more of an Imperial age thing.

Besides, except Celts and maybe Slavs, every other civ is generic in Castle age siege-wise.

As for OP’s posts, I think most of it boils down to 2 issues:

1. Gurjaras can do a VERY aggressive 19 pop Archer, making traditional openings useless (MAA is hard countered by archers and Scouts is countered by Archers + 1 spear mixed in)

2. they only get better as time goes on and unless you do massive damage in Feudal (3-4 villager kills which is hard/extremely rare vs opponent of same level), they get ~650 extra food by min 21 when you enter Castle age compared to you and your “average top tier civ” like say Ethiopians gets less resources than that going into Castle age.

[casusincorrabil]

@Green4uu

how is siege even relevant vs Gurjaras tho?

It’s important vs the shakrams.

[timecloud5713]

@Green4uu

Let’s try to create a theoretical scenario where you don’t roll something bad in Castle age like Byzantines or Turks

Wait, how are Byzantines or Turks bad in that match up? Byzantines are one of the hard counter civs to Gurjaras and Hindustanis and Turks can comfortably go for CA or janissaries

[Green4uu]

idk, no eco bonus, no power unit… if Byzantines are good vs Gurjaras, then Malay are good too, since we are in the realm of “any form of civ bonus we get can be used in principle”.

[timecloud5713]

Keep in mind that Cataphracts kill everything Gurjaras can make, and nowadays they are actually affordable. Byzantines are so flexible that you can counter the counter