# How to fix Italians **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867 "2024-06-03T23:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/l0rdc0nquest/32/170270_2.png) [@L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/L0rdc0nquest)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/1 "2024-06-03T23:26:00Z")
Italians are currently one of the worst performing (not the top 5, but maybe the top 10) civs in 1v1 right now, but there’s an easy fix. JUST CHANGE THE IMPERIAL UT TO SOMETHING USEFUL! Something that doesn’t overpower their options but strengthens something like the bombard cannon. They could receive some sort of case-shot ability as an anti-unit attack. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/3 "2024-06-03T23:38:58Z")
I think you are referring to Arabia but not Arena? ---
**Author:** ![L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/l0rdc0nquest/32/170270_2.png) [@L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/L0rdc0nquest)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/4 "2024-06-03T23:54:52Z")
Im referring to all maps, and all elos. ---
**Author:** ![FurtherLime7936](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/furtherlime7936/32/113417_2.png) [@FurtherLime7936](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/FurtherLime7936)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/5 "2024-06-04T00:05:23Z")
please, look better before saying lies: > **[Italians - 1v1 Random Map | ALL - aoestats](https://aoestats.io/civs/italians/)** > > Age of Empires II DE Italians civilization statistics. 1v1 Random Map ladder at ALL rating. Current win rate: 48.59% 48.59% WR, far from being the absolutely the worst. Also they are only bad on open maps, while on closed maps are quite good, and in water they are a top civ. ---
**Author:** ![L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/l0rdc0nquest/32/170270_2.png) [@L0rdc0nquest](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/L0rdc0nquest)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/6 "2024-06-04T00:17:28Z")
I said one of the worst. They are currently in 33rd place. Also, their bonuses for water are too good, so they could be nerfed or something. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/7 "2024-06-04T00:46:26Z")
Just my two cents… - Fishing Ships just no longer have discounts, or have a lower discount like 10% instead, or have no the discount until the Feudal Age. The cheaper age advance bonus and Dock technologies discount alone are enough to make them an excellent water civ. - The Archer Armor technologies in Blacksmiths are free. This should echo their theme of higher armored archers and work very well with the cheaper age advance bonus. Allow the Koreans to research University technologies without wood in exchange. - Rename Silk Road, to maybe _Merchant Republics_. Now it also spawns a _Merchant_ who uses no population (or 1 population space) and generates gold like a human Relic, and also has its effects for every player in the team. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 5:14am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/8 "2024-06-04T05:14:23Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Allow the Koreans to research University technologies without wood in exchange. I dont think that Moving the bonus to other civs has happend before? If yes, I would prefer to move Mayan wall discount to Spanish first. ---
**Author:** ![SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/smum15236/32/29763_2.png) [@SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SMUM15236)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/9 "2024-06-04T07:16:46Z")
Italians is doing fine. They are top tier on water and hybrid maps, above average in Arena and okay in Arabia. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Allow the Koreans to research University technologies without wood in exchange. Too much wood savings for them. > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > I dont think that Moving the bonus to other civs has happend before? At least 3 times. Age of Kings : Teutons TC +5 range and +5 LOS, and +5 attack → The Conquerors : Chinese TC +5 LOS. The Conquerors : Aztecs loom is free → DE : Goths loom is free. (Later changed to loom can be researched instantly) African Kingdoms : Malians gold mining upgrades are free → DOTD : Bohemians all mining techs are free. Lastly Slavs removed UT Orthodoxy moved to Bengalis civ bonus. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 8:26am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/10 "2024-06-04T08:26:06Z")
But Korean now is more like an archer civ than a tower civ. Will they change Korean identity again and give them tower bonus? The possibility is pretty low. For Italians, giving them slightly stronger early castle age should be fine, like 33% discount of archery tech as other suggested. I would also prefer a change for silk road. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 8:50am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/11 "2024-06-04T08:50:35Z")
> [@SMUM15236](#): > > Too much wood savings for them. Personally I think it’s fine. The wood saving is their identity too. The 300 wood of the Ballistics would be always saved by this, but other techs might not, depending on the situation. Many games end before they get to the point where they are suitable for heavy use of towers or sieges for the Koreans. But true that the University techs affect a lot on them. Archers, towers, sieges… Even if the 100% off is unacceptable, a lower one like 75% or 50% could be okay. > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > But Korean now is more like an archer civ than a tower civ. Will they change Korean identity again and give them tower bonus? The possibility is pretty low. I think the ones who benefit the most from the wood discount for University techs is exactly the archers. Although they would only benefit from the wood cost of Ballistics, the faster availability of Ballistics is impactful. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 9:20am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/12 "2024-06-04T09:20:25Z")
I prefer the current free armor as it makes war wagons more impressive. I even think armored archer makes Italians more like Viet. At least cheaper thumb ring and xbow upgrade help against cav civs, which mostly unfavorable for Italians. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 11:14am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/13 "2024-06-04T11:14:06Z")
> [@SMUM15236](#): > > > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > > > I dont think that Moving the bonus to other civs has happend before? > > At least 3 times. > Age of Kings : Teutons TC +5 range and +5 LOS, and +5 attack → The Conquerors : Chinese TC +5 LOS. > The Conquerors : Aztecs loom is free → DE : Goths loom is free. (Later changed to loom can be researched instantly) All those bonuses were discarded before changing civs, because they weren’t working for that specific civ, so they didn’t belong to any civs at the time of the change. It never happened that a bonus was directly removed, for the purpose of giving it to another civ. Anyway, if we want to recycle a bonus for the Italians, having monastery costing -100 wood would be a better bonus in my opinion. If it’s too weak, add that every monk tech also spawn a monk at the monastery. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/14 "2024-06-04T12:13:33Z")
The Pavise does give Italians armored archers. Free archer armors are just following this identity. In my opinion, the most importantly, they would really be useful with the age bonus. If I remember correctly, I have suggested it for Italians before Koreans got it, so that may be why I don’t mind whether it is a Korean bonus at all. To me, it’s just that the Italians deserve it from the beginning. If Italians get the cheaper archery range techs too, personally it just makes too many techs cheaper by one bonus, somehow make them like Chinese but more focus on archers and water. On the other hand the free armors do not bring any impressive to war wagon in my personal view. The wagons are unique units, which means their armor can be adjusted as long as the devs’ wish. Just give the +2 armor and they would still be the same even if the free armor bonus is gone. By the way, the wagons able to have archer armors is strange from the beginning. They are wagons so it’s weird that they are be counterattacked by skirmishers. If they didn’t be introduced until Rise of the Rajas, they could be kind of siege units. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/15 "2024-06-04T16:01:51Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > The Pavise does give Italians armored archers. Free archer armors are just following this identity. Free archer armours is not going to happen for Italians as the bonus is already occupied. Actually it fits Viet more. I am not sure if it is due to the cavalry archers being too good with free armors for either Viet or Italians. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Just give the +2 armor and they would still be the same even if the free armor bonus is gone. This can work. But Korean archers will be suddenly weaker and Koreans have bad stable. It makes sense that their archers to be stronger. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > wagons able to have archer armors is strange from the beginning. They are wagons so it’s weird that they are be counterattacked by skirmishers. If they didn’t be intr###### until Rise of the Rajas, they could be kind of siege units. No way it will be a siege unit as monks will not be able to counter them in early castle age. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Rename Silk Road, to maybe _Merchant Republics_. > Now it also spawns a _Merchant_ who uses no population (or 1 population space) and generates gold like a human Relic, and also has its effects for every player in the team Can silk road be civ bonus instead? Change -20% pop space for Condos and arbalests. They are not benefited from one UT and team bonus in 1v1, which is pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/smum15236/32/29763_2.png) [@SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SMUM15236)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/17 "2024-06-04T17:36:46Z")
> [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > But Korean now is more like an archer civ than a tower civ. Will they change Korean identity again and give them tower bonus? The possibility is pretty low. Yeah, I’m not happy about that. Wish they stayed as “Defensive civ” identity. But you’re probably right. Koreans won’t be touched for a while I suppose. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Personally I think it’s fine. The wood saving is their identity too. > The 300 wood of the Ballistics would be always saved by this, but other techs might not, depending on the situation. 50% wood discount on archer and then wood free Ballistic. A big no for me. Will be very one dimensional play. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > All those bonuses were discarded before changing civs Only free Loom. Teutons → Chinese was instant. Except for the range which can’t be worked for any civ anyway. Malians → Bohemians was also instant. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Anyway, if we want to recycle a bonus for the Italians, having monastery costing -100 wood would be a better bonus in my opinion. They need help in open maps if anything. Cheaper monastery, as from the Bohemians stats, kept their W/R literally the same in Arabia. > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > Can silk road be civ bonus instead? Can be a team bonus with a smaller number. Then new UT make Condo available for allies and maybe also spawn some free condo as the unit is locked behind UT and won’t be an useless tech in 1v1. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/18 "2024-06-04T23:34:52Z")
> [@SMUM15236](#): > > the unit is locked behind UT This is a nerf of their powerspike. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/19 "2024-06-05T00:44:41Z")
> [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > Free archer armours is not going to happen for Italians as the bonus is already occupied. Being occupied by Koreans for now is not the point. What I mean is exactly moving it from Koreans to Italians. You may not personally like the bonus move, but there’s no sign that moving is impossible. > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > This can work. But Korean archers will be suddenly weaker and Koreans have bad stable. It makes sense that their archers to be stronger. So I have said to give a new bonus (in my example, a wood discount for university techs) to Koreans. > [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > No way it will be a siege unit as monks will not be able to counter them in early castle age. Ballista Elephant. That’s why I mentioned Rise of the Rajas. The armor class of the wagon could be similar to it. > [@SMUM15236](#): > > 50% wood discount on archer and then wood free Ballistic. A big no for me. Will be very one dimensional play. You have completely misunderstood what I stated. I mean if university techs -100% wood is considered too much, then a lower number like -80%, -75%, -66% or at least -50% wood would also be fine. It’s all about university techs, nothing to do with the discount on units. The discount on units is not affected. It’s not one-dimensional at all. Replacing the free archer armors with university techs that cost less wood would be a more diverse change. > [@SMUM15236](#): > > as the unit is locked behind UT The big no should go for this. Seriously hurting this unit’s niche. When I have an (urgent) need, rather than wait for the Italian ally (maybe it’s behind, lacking in resources, not castle-having or even dead) to research the UT, I would rather just try to upgrade and use other units on my own. Then the Italian ally don’t have to research UT just for a few Condos. You would no longer see allies using it as actively as they do now. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/20 "2024-06-05T01:11:51Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > there’s no sign that moving is impossible. Is there any sign of moving the bonus? Is it too OP for Koreans to have free archer armor? After xbow nerf, Italians needs free archer armor? While archery tech discount just revert xbow timing Why devs need to move the bonus and take time to test new Koreans when there is a simpler solution? ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/21 "2024-06-05T01:25:04Z")
> [@AbuzzJam4677680](#): > > Why devs need to move the bonus and take time to test new Koreans when there is a simpler solution? So you agree that there is no technical or thematic issue to make it impossible. If people are only pursuing the minimum amount of work, then I do not deny that it is very simple to just let Archery Range join Dock and University to enjoy the -33% technology discount. Just from my personal point of view, I think this makes the scope of application of this bonus too much, one step closer to the Chinese bonus. Quite boring. Like Stable techs cost -50% for Burgundians, Archery Range techs cost -50% would be a very useful and unique bonus for a future civ, which also makes me think it’s a bit wasteful to give it to an existing civ. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867/22 "2024-06-05T01:58:45Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > closer to the Chinese bonus. Still far too different from Chinese bonus. Italians would just go xbow smoother and at a lower cost and still have penalty to go for tech switch, unlike Chinese. Balance-wise, italians is weak to strong archer civs and strong cav civs. At least now they have cheaper ballistics and pavise for that. For cav, faster xbow helps better than free armor. [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-fix-italians/254867.md?page=2)