You can, but atm there is no civ which has both. Only malians, sicilians and incas have a compatible frontline unit (huskarls are too fast for a “slow” frontline, but they could be paired with the goths ca. Just, yeah why doing this if you have a perfect full infantry combo?).
All of them just have no (good) ca. Or in case of malians, the gbeto is even a better combo because it deals more + melee damage.
As you see, these are all unique. This is the reason why we don’t see much front/backline atm. Because there are almost no good frontline units.
Lol did I just read the statement that Sicilian need to have HCA with better upgrades?
First it makes 0 sense, second if you think giving them HCA+parthian tactics would help them, then consider this : can you remember the last time you’ve seen someone seriously go HCA as Khmer (everything minus thumb ring) and upgrade them in the late game?
Khmer have just better options, they don’t need hca, which also don’t fit into their other gameplay anyways.
Don’t need, it would be a possibility as a backline. It would be a very nice combo with the serjeants.
And I said you could give them hca + thumb ring, NOT parthian tactics. Never said that.
Then I misread, but even if you give them HCA+thumb ring then serjeant+HCA is just 2HS+HCA from Bulgarian, but everything is more expensive. Like ig donjons are cheaper than krepost but they are much weaker.
Anyway, arbs are enough of a backline unit. I mean would you rather have had Italian buffed with cheaper university techs or access to HCA? Ditto for Portuguese.
The damage output of arbs isn’t high enough and they are too slow, I already explained that.
You want fast high dps units as backline.
Also massed arbs (as you make them) don’t really need a frontline, The biggest threat to them are mangos, which you snipe with scouts. Which can occasionally also work as meatshield.
If you don’t believe me, you can go in scenario editor and make a test: hca + serjeants vs scouts + archers. Then you’ll see what i’m talking about.
Imagine all those noobs who use chu ko nu or arbs as Chinese instead of HCA. Why don’t Ethiopian playersmake HCA, arbs are slowing down shotels. Ratan are slower than HCA, why are people even bothering building castles as Vietnamese.
So you’re telling me you don’t add a frontline to a slow unit that can’t run away from bad engagements? Every archer civ will eventually tech into halbs.
Scenario editor is bad. If you don’t believe me, you can go in scenario editor to make a test: HCA + serjeants against double their numbers in teutonic knights.
so a slow unit with lower dps and health and armor doesn’t need a front line unit, but a faster unit with higher dps and health and armor does need a front line unit.
your logic is not very logical.
imagine thinking scenario editor tests mean anything. if this was true TK would be the best unit in the game. but we all see hwo that works out.
also does your test take into account the fact that scouts + archers is much cheaper then HCA + serjeants?
5 scouts + 5 archers = 400 food, 125 wood, and 225 gold
5 serjeants + 5 hca = 300 food, 200 wood, and 475 gold.
100 more food but 75 less wood and 250 less gold.
not to mention the huge difference in upgrade costs all totaled.
and that’s just 5 of each unit.
A frontline is a durable unit to protect the vulnerable backline from mostly ranged attacks IN a engagement and soak a lot of the damage. A meatshield is a utility to avoid certain unfavorable engagements to happen entirely, also often to just block melee to reach the ranged units.
A Frontline is to hold the line. A meatshield is to die in doing their duty.
Scouts and Halbs are meatshields. Serjeants are frontline.
It’s something completely different.
Archers need sometimes meatshields becaus they can’t just run away. Cav archers are better paired with a frontline because they have the mobility to run and kite, themselves. They can avoid most melee engagements.
make it 6 scouts + 12 archers and 5 serjeants + 8 cav archers or something like this. I think there’s a way to balance the res.
so 480 food, 300 wood, and 540 gold vs 300 food, 320 wood, and 655 gold. that’s at least closer to reasonable but still whats the price tag on elite serjeant and heavy cav archer vs the price tag on arb and hussar.
a meat shield is the same thing as a front line, sorry not sorry. if your job is to protect something else, that means they hold more value then you, and you’re role is expendable.
but his point was you claimed that archers don’t need a meat shield/front line, and yet HCA do. thats the statement we take exception with.
i think you have too much patience with these guys… remember you’re arguing with someone that thinks TR is less important than PT… as you can see from every other counter point he makes it is just as bad, so why bother?
Oh right that’s why Mongols make mangudai+champions all the time. ofc if Sicilian had HCA they’d rather combo them with light cav
No, paying gold for a frontline and then running away with your CA and let your expensive frontline to die alone isn’t a good plan. That’s why the right play is to use light cav with CA: one it’s not expensive, two it can run away alongside the CA.
Also ffs why is this convo on cost and scenario editors still going on, isn’t it obvious the scenario editor isn’t good enough to solve that question, especially since micro is so important there.
And making Sicilian a bootleg CA civ still makes ZERO sense.
I swear if Mayan had 45% winrate people would be suggesting BBC+paladin 11
It is a big difference.
frontline + backline can push, meatshield + archers can’t really.
frontline + backline gets good value from almost all engagements- meatshield + archers try to avoid engagements entirely but instead damage the eco.
It’s a completely different playstile.
After a good engagement often the frontline is still partially intact, so you can immediately use the momentum in your favor. Archers without a meatshield can get into big trouble. So you normally try to reinforce before going to raid.
Besides that I don’t question that archers are better to damage the enemy eco, becasue hca with low armor can’t really raid. But in terms of military usage, frontline + backline is in general superior to most meatshield + dps bullies. Exception of course mass siege onager + halberd. But also only if you have a lot of mangonels and because of the mangonels pop efficiency and aoe damage. The damage is just too high.
But also siege onagers work better with frontlines than meatshields. See koreans + khmer.
Frontline is far from optimal because camels destroy it, but it works very well in all other situations.
Of course war wagons and ballista elephants are somewhat a combo between frontline and meetshield, because they can block the enemy troops so efficiently. But they hold the line far better than halbs in general.
There are many differences in the playstile.
BTW we all agree the serjeant is overpriced right now. It’s not the best frontline you can get. But it has the potential to become one.
With lacking 4 pierce armor? A cav archer civ?
It’s just for the availability as backline, a cav archer with only 2 PA can’t do cav archer things.
Well, if you want to idle the eco it’s also important not to be running away all the time. So it can be usefull in many situations. That’s a different story. You usually don’t use the magudai in these engagements, you go for the eco.
Not away, kite them through your frontline units. That’s the advantage of having them nearby and hold the line. You can’t kite through a dead meatshield.
Well I can’t make the ai better, but you can see the difference by trying both comps against a variety of enemy units how they perform. You will see, the frontline + backline will perform much better, even though the ai micro takes away a lot of the advtage you would have against a human player. (Cause archers are actually the better standalone unit and the ai sucks against good ranged micro but excels against slow units like the serjeant).
