How to improve the serjeant?

[DoctBaghi]

@casusincorrabil

How do you push with archers? Only if the enemy has no defences left. But then its gg anyway.
And much faster with siege, too.

Yeah ok, if you think that archers alone should shred anything of course you can’t push, but you know, it’s really common to add some siege to your archers to destroy the enemy buildings, and BBC or hussars to snipe enemy onagers.

The archers kills the melee units that try to kill the siege, and the siege kill buildings and enemy siege? Otherwise why archers+SR or archers+BBC are some of the most common and powerful combos, with the addition of either halbs or hussars?

@casusincorrabil

why we are talking about pros? And why do pros actually make mangonels vs archers?

Well, that pros should be considered the only people who play the game is correct, but they do know the game better.

As for the second question, it’s because manganels are cheap and can easily fend off, or even discourage the enemy push. The value that you get by even a good manganels shot can easily repay the cost for the manganel itself. And even if the enemy can out-micro you, he probably dedicated so much attention to the micro that his eco will be worse than yours, and you can always have another manganel pop up.

It’s the same thing with monks, even a knight converted more than pay for the cost of the monk, and just the threat of it make you enemy more careful.

@Antelope962027

but they defeat everything else, including Hand Cannoneers and Conquistadores (unless intense hit-n-run micro is used)

Yeah well, than there is no point on even make HC if you don’t micro or use a meatshield onestly, like half of the units in the game…

Serjeants are simply too expensive to be chosen instead of champs, and too slow to make effective use of that armor, since range units can micro them down, and most melee units can avoid engaging until they have an advantage (hills, more numbers…).

@anon45959656

I found that Serjeants are not that hard to mass.

But champs will always be easier to mass.

@Exradicator

I did some further thinking, and elaborating some more my previous ideas:

• Raise the movement speed of serjeants (starting from feudal) to 1.0 (same as samurai). Gives them a bit more mobility and versatility.

-Add +1 damage to the elite upgrade. If you notice, the serjeants have always 1 less damage than the militia line counterpart of the same age, except in imp where they have 11 instead of 12 base damage (comparing to champion here). Given how expensive the elite upgrade is, I think 1 extra point of damage is warranted.

-Add permanent effect to First Crusade: serjeants cost 10f and 5g gold less, a bit like a supplies. Adjust the cost if necessary.

• Optional: if that’s still not enough, add some extra damage against buildings, but it’s probably not needed.

I think that either one or the other it may be enough.

Either you reduce the cost (not through first crusade) so your feudal pushes with serjeants and donjons are more efficient (maybe you need to reduce the cost of the donjons too though), or you increase the speed and base attack/attack bonus (vs buildings), so they are more effective.

In the end, look at the only civs that consistently use infantry in the feudal age. Those are either the celts or goths, so we should take example from them.

[Exradicator]

@DoctBaghi

Either you reduce the cost (not through first crusade) so your feudal pushes with serjeants and donjons are more efficient (maybe you need to reduce the cost of the donjons too though), or you increase the speed and base attack/attack bonus (vs buildings), so they are more effective.

If I had to pick only one, I would pick movement speed. I think giving +1 attack to elite would also be a good idea. Then we can see if they still need more help.

[ReanuKeeves00]

@DoctBaghi

But champs will always be easier to mass.

Champs are easier to mass than almost any UU so that is not surprising. I don’t think the Serjeant is meant to be used as a kill-all unit like the Mangudai. Buuuuut, I would not complain about a slight gold cost reduction and/or faster training time for the Serjeant

[casusincorrabil]

@Exradicator

Raise the movement speed of serjeants (starting from feudal) to 1.0 (same as samurai). Gives them a bit more mobility and versatility.

Well, it wouldn’t change the utility much. But if it helps people feel safer with them, i don’t mind it.

@Exradicator

Add permanent effect to First Crusade: serjeants cost 10f and 5g gold less, a bit like a supplies. Adjust the cost if necessary.

-10 f - 5 g is a bit too much if they are buffed in any other way. But - 10 f - 5 g could be a good solution if they at least take away the anti-eagle damage. They already softcounter eagles gue to their high armor, they don’t need any bonus damage vs them.

I would suggest:
Take away at least the anti-egale damage (and maybe also anti-building damage). This is actually a must for balancing reasons. And:

either -10 f - 5g (or -15 f)

or: -10 f and give them some utility like +1 dmg, +.1 speed OR make them able to build (certain) military buiidings at much lower speed, add some more ranged support options to sicilians like HCA or better scorpions (faster + no min range eg, (garrisonable)).

I think many people in this thread overestimate the effect of higher speed with them. They are neither a huskarl/eagle nor a dps/melee counter unit like many other infantry. They aren’t designed for open field battles without any ranged support. And I also think they aren’t intendet as archer counter, they are intendet to tank a lot of ranged fire. And to become an archer counter they need at least huskarl speed. +.1 isn’t enough. But because I don’t see them as an archer counter, I don’t think there is any reason to buff them in that direction. Sicilians have good other options to counter archers, actually.
It’s also somewhat silly to produce a melee archer counter in the front. If you need it, you need it at home.
We already have a huskarl in the game, we don’t need a “light huskarl” for any means.

[phoenix1089]

@Antelope962027

Mocking me is not going

Wtf are you on about?

@Antelope962027

you are only stroking your own ego

Ok i will mock you then…

“look i can blindly repeat a quote i learnt somewhere even though i don’t understand what it means”

Please insult me more…

@anon45959656

They can build donjons wherever

200 stone… gosh guys… A rax is a fraction of the cost… You can far more easily mass the counter unit

[phoenix1089]

@DoctBaghi

Either you reduce the cost (not through first crusade) so your feudal pushes with serjeants and donjons are more efficient (maybe you need to reduce the cost of the donjons too though), or you increase the speed and base attack/attack bonus (vs buildings), so they are more effective

Exactly. The civ needs a bit of a buff. And by over buffing the serjeant it doesn’t leave room for a civ buff.

We could always buff the sgt gradually. ie speed increase and if that isn’t enough then discount it, etc

@casusincorrabil

I think many people in this thread overestimate the effect of higher speed with them.

Yes all of us are wrong and you are right.

Clearly celts, lith and cuman speed differences mean very little. Porto lack of squires means nothing. Same for teutons lack of husbandry.

The speed difference between a mangudai and CA also means nothing… (it’s an even smaller difference)

[ReanuKeeves00]

@phoenix1089

You can far more easily mass the counter unit

That is literally the point of counter units lol

on topic: Speed buffing the Serjeant is pointless, they can already spam donjons anywhere on the map, so you won’t save much time with getting reinforcements to the front with such a bonus.

[phoenix1089]

@anon45959656

That is literally the point of counter units

The point being… A malian can build rax for a fraction of the cost, and easily out produce with a unit that does almost the same thing… Without wasting 200 stone a pop on a building that gets nuked…

[ReanuKeeves00]

@phoenix1089

Without wasting 200 stone a pop on a building that gets nuked…

If your forward bases regularly get taken out, that’s probably more of a personal issue rather than a civ problem… so not sure how to relate that to this thread…

On topic: I think a slight cost reduction would be the most helpful buff to the Serjeant, maybe a cost reduction bundled with the stat increase in Castle Age, to not make the unit too oppressive in Feudal

[casusincorrabil]

@phoenix1089

The speed difference between a mangudai and CA also means nothing…

If you compare this to squire like speed increase you show that you don’t understand it.
Serjeants aren’t at the edge of the scale, serjeants aren’t ranged. Serjeants are countered by heavy cav. Serjeants can easily retreat to their also nearby prodution buildings.
A speed increase of .1 means almost nothing to them.

Whilst a speed increase of .05 to cav archers makes them abnoxious as hell.

[Exradicator]

@casusincorrabil

I would suggest:
Take away at least the anti-egale damage (and maybe also anti-building damage). This is actually a must for balancing reasons

Why is it not fine for them to counter eagles? Eagles can still run away easily. I don’t see any issue with that.

@anon45959656

on topic: Speed buffing the Serjeant is pointless, they can already spam donjons anywhere on the map, so you won’t save much time with getting reinforcements to the front with such a bonus.

Spam a building that cost 200 stone? How? And why should I waste stone on what is essentially a tower, when I can just use for castles which are far tankier, produce UU, research UT and make trebs?

Moreover, what’s the point of having more buildings producing a unit which is bad?

[DoctBaghi]

@casusincorrabil

-10 f - 5 g is a bit too much if they are buffed in any other way. But - 10 f - 5 g could be a good solution if they at least take away the anti-eagle damage. They already softcounter eagles gue to their high armor, they don’t need any bonus damage vs them.

Every infantry is a hard or at least soft counter to eagles, it’s how it have to be, since mayans EEW can beat generic cavaliers.

Serjeant have just +2*(+3)* vs eagles, and shouldn’t lose it. Eagles can engage basically all units cost effective, gold infantry units is the exception.

@phoenix1089

We could always buff the sgt gradually. ie speed increase and if that isn’t enough then discount it, etc

Yeah, nothing too crazy, but I would actually prefer to buff first their UU than giving them generic techs.

Apart from the monastery, their monastery needs a buff…

@anon45959656

on topic: Speed buffing the Serjeant is pointless, they can already spam donjons anywhere on the map, so you won’t save much time with getting reinforcements to the front with such a bonus.

It’s about reinforcements, who cares about them, a forward castle always solve that. And it’s way better than donjons.

The problem is that almost all other units can decide when to engage and when not. You can’t do anything with them, and even for slow pushes are too expensive to be effective.

@Exradicator

If I had to pick only one, I would pick movement speed. I think giving +1 attack to elite would also be a good idea. Then we can see if they still need more help.

Me too, at least as much as a pike, or as a celt M@A. Giving them a bit of bonus damage vs buildings, already in feudal, may help on donjons rushes to pressure walls.

[casusincorrabil]

@Exradicator

Why is it not fine for them to counter eagles? Eagles can still run away easily. I don’t see any issue with that.

Yeah, run away if the enemy raids and pushes your base, this is the prob.
Mayans have no answer to mass serjeants right now.

[Exradicator]

@casusincorrabil

Yeah, run away if the enemy raids and pushes your base, this is the prob.
Mayans have no answer to mass serjeants right now.

That’s a problem with mayans, not sicilians. They don’t have answer to malian champions or goth huskarl either. I have been long saying that they should get champions in other posts.

[DoctBaghi]

@casusincorrabil

@Exradicator

Why is it not fine for them to counter eagles? Eagles can still run away easily. I don’t see any issue with that.

Yeah, run away if the enemy raids and pushes your base, this is the prob.
Mayans have no answer to mass serjeants right now.

Plumes and mass arbs/skirms says hi…

And serjeant takes forever to pressure your base, while eagles and plumes, kill every vills of your.

[casusincorrabil]

Weel sicilians have fu champs to counter eagles, I see absolutely no reason for serjeants to be eagle hardcounter, too. Especially if heavy cav, the counterpart, hardcounters serjeants. It makes no sense at all.

Serjeants should be different to champs in some aspects to give a reason for sicilians to use their champs actually.

@DoctBaghi

Plumes and mass arbs/skirms says hi…

dealing 1 or 2 damage per shot… Really? You can reinforce faster than mayans can kill your serjeants.

@DoctBaghi

And serjeant takes forever to pressure your base

Doesn’t matter if you can’t push them back.

@DoctBaghi

while eagles and plumes, kill every vills of your.

This is actually why it’s not a prob at moment, because the early agression potential of mayans kills sicilians way before. But if sicilians get any early eco bonus, what they need atm, this would turn the table completely.

[Exradicator]

@casusincorrabil

Weel sicilians have fu champs to counter eagles, I see absolutely no reason for serjeants to be eagle hardcounter, too. Especially if heavy cav, the counterpart, hardcounters serjeants. It makes no sense at all.

It makes sense, as I said it’s just a limitation of the current tech tree of mayans. Incas have slingers and aztecs can choose between garland champions or jaguar warriors. It’s not a problem for the eagle civs in general, it’s an already existing problem specific to mayans.

[DoctBaghi]

@casusincorrabil

dealing 1 or 2 damage per shot… Really? You can reinforce faster than mayans can kill your serjeants.

3 damage per shot, since bonus damage always ignore armor. And can micro down serjeants forever.

Also, by the time you massed serjeants, mayans massed way more plumes, since they cost way less, train faster, and mayans have a way better eco.

Unless you play only black forest, serjeants vs mayans isn’t a good idea…

@casusincorrabil

Doesn’t matter if you can’t push them back.

Again, onagers and archers say hi…

@casusincorrabil

This is actually why it’s not a prob at moment, because the early agression potential of mayans kills sicilians way before. But if sicilians get any early eco bonus, what they need atm, this would turn the table completely.

Even if we don’t consider late game, by the time that the slow push of sicilians have an effect on mayans eco, plumes and eagles can raid you eco with way less units and faster.

@casusincorrabil

Weel sicilians have fu champs to counter eagles, I see absolutely no reason for serjeants to be eagle hardcounter, too. Especially if heavy cav, the counterpart, hardcounters serjeants. It makes no sense at all.

In fact, champs are a hard counter with their +8 bonus damage and low cost, and serjeants are a middle counter with their +3 and higher cost.

[casusincorrabil]

@DoctBaghi

In fact, champs are a hard counter with their +8 bonus damage and low cost, and serjeants are a middle counter with their +3 and higher cost.

Serjeants have so high armor, the extra bonus dmg makes them a hardcounter for any eagle that isn’t UT upgraded. And we all know that serjeants are overpriced right now.

@DoctBaghi

3 damage per shot, since bonus damage always ignore armor. And can micro down serjeants forever.

ah, yes you’re right with that, mass plumes could actually work. I forgot about that bonus for a moment. Still, it isn’t optimal, cause you need castles and the donjons can inflict heavy losses in your plume numbers. But it can work, though.

[JokerPenguin593]

@CactusSteak2171

Serjeant being able to build anything besides donjons is an horrible idea. Because unlike a villager, it doesn’t stop building when damaged, which would make a castle built by serjeants even harder to deny than one built by Sicilian villagers. Reducing the building speed woud be pointless because first crusade would provide you with enough serjeants to make up for that

you are right. Better forget about sergeants building other things than donjons.