# How to make the native semi-civ more useful? **URL:** \ **Category:** III - Discussion\ **Created:** [August 16, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736 "2021-08-16T12:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/operaticship743/32/104612_2.png) [@OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/OperaticShip743)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/21 "2021-08-17T14:20:26Z")
That could be fixed by slightly increasing the cost of native trading posts such as: 200 Lumber + 100 Gold. Or in some similar way. I don’t think balance is an excuse not to improve the game. ---
**Author:** ![Morigandois](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/morigandois/32/30481_2.png) [@Morigandois](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Morigandois)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/22 "2021-08-17T14:35:22Z")
I also thought before that native sites were underused as the trade routes are way more attractive because of the resource advantage they give. My idea was that native sited provide some economic bonus like a wood and food trickle, that would help in affording their units and techs so you can spend a bit more in other things ---
**Author:** ![EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/eliteriflemann/32/134254_2.png) [@EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/EliteRiflemann)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/23 "2021-08-17T15:17:46Z")
The ceque system that the Incas can send in early age is very strong, but if you rush native, I don’t see why the other civilizations in the game can’t have it. On the other hand, the natives are great, some units are very strong and their upgrades are very useful, but players pass on them simply because they forget they exist, but that does not mean that they are not worth it. ![my-image (4)](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/a/f/af106e6089146ea84390650d309a260bce4a2e8c.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![AgeOfAwesomenes](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/ageofawesomenes/32/71495_2.png) [@AgeOfAwesomenes](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AgeOfAwesomenes)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/24 "2021-08-17T15:23:02Z")
Natives are good in the late game as you can add a lot troops to your army if you can grab multiple camps ---
**Author:** ![Dolphincup](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/dolphincup/32/29037_2.png) [@Dolphincup](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Dolphincup)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/25 "2021-08-17T15:57:00Z")
IMO it would be lazy design to simply add an XP trickle to native TPs. It’s redundant and devaluates the trade route, and it wouldn’t work if the value is anything less than that of a trade route. Just look at churches. Nobody includes them in their BO despite the included xp trickle. Native TPs need some way to quickly make up the up-front 200w cost. I like that idea with unique passive abilities. they could easily just convert one of the upgrades. free units is nice too, but at 1 res/second is the standard which amounts to ~1 unit every minute and a half or so, or worse for cav. Sufi would take almost 5 minutes to get an elephant. That’s why I propose the 1-time batches. It would be an age2-shipment worth of units, to be clear. ---
**Author:** ![OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/operaticship743/32/104612_2.png) [@OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/OperaticShip743)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/27 "2021-08-17T16:22:11Z")
The point is to make them attractive in some way and at the same time not break the balance of the game. It could be several things at the same time already mentioned. Passive bonuses, experience drip, units generated automatically over time (3-4 minutes?). Once I read a proposal that native villages could allow creating villagers as well as Cree, this would be nice too. (It could be enabled in 3 or 4 years). ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/28 "2021-08-17T16:27:22Z")
> [@EliteRiflemann](#): > > On the other hand, the natives are great, some units are very strong and their upgrades are very useful, but players pass on them simply because they forget they exist, but that does not mean that they are not worth it. So the dev have to remind the players. > [@Dolphincup](#): > > Just look at churches. Nobody includes them in their BO despite the included xp trickle. I actually saw the players build churches in the matches. > [@OperaticShip743](#): > > Once I read a proposal that native villages could allow creating villagers as well as Cree, this would be nice too. (It could be enabled in 3 or 4 years). Is that an unique card of the American native civ? ---
**Author:** ![Moonshadow7475](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Moonshadow7475](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Moonshadow7475)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/29 "2021-08-17T16:31:22Z")
> [@Dolphincup](#): > > Just look at churches. Nobody includes them in their BO despite the included xp trickle. It depends on the civ, ofc. Some really need that xp tick. I think the first step is to adjust the cost of natives, and reduce the wood cost, maybe move some of it to food instead. What’s the point of being free, if they require as much wood as a house? ---
**Author:** ![OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/operaticship743/32/104612_2.png) [@OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/OperaticShip743)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/30 "2021-08-17T17:43:04Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Is that an unique card of the American native civ? I don’t know what letter you mean because I haven’t explored that civilization enough. The point is that it could enable the creation of 5 villagers similar to the native Cree. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/31 "2021-08-17T17:45:44Z")
**Kinship Ties** [Villagers](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Villager_(Age_of_Empires_III)) can be trained at [Native Embassies](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Native_Embassy), and allows the Native Embassy to be built if it isn’t available. > **[Lakota Home City Cards](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Lakota_Home_City_Cards#Elder)** > > This page contains all Home City Cards available for the Lakota (formerly Sioux) civilization in The WarChiefs, including The Asian Dynasties expansion and the Definitive Edition. Green: TEAM Shipment that is sent to each player in a team Violet:... > **[Haudenosaunee Home City Cards](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Haudenosaunee_Home_City_Cards#Elder)** > > This page contains all the Home City Cards available to the Haudenosaunee (formerly Iroquois) civilization in The WarChiefs, including The Asian Dynasties expansion and the Definitive Edition. Green: TEAM Shipment that is sent to each player in a... > **[Aztec Home City Cards](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Aztec_Home_City_Cards#Temple)** > > This page contains all Home City Cards available to the Aztec civilization in The WarChiefs, including The Asian Dynasties expansion. Green: TEAM Shipment that is sent to each player in a team Violet: Shipment that can be sent an INFINITE number of... > **[Inca Home City Cards](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Inca_Home_City_Cards#Temple)** > > This page contains all Home City Cards available to the Inca civilization in Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition. Green: TEAM Shipment that is sent to each player in a team Violet: Shipment that can be sent an INFINITE number of times ---
**Author:** ![OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/operaticship743/32/104612_2.png) [@OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/OperaticShip743)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/32 "2021-08-17T17:51:26Z")
> **[Cree Coureur des Bois](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Cree_Coureur_des_Bois)** > > Expensive but powerful villager who gathers fast.In-game description The Cree Coureur des Bois is a Native American villager in Age of Empires III. It is available at Cree settlements. Although Cree Coureurs des Bois are available only in small... ---
**Author:** ![EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/eliteriflemann/32/134254_2.png) [@EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/EliteRiflemann)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/33 "2021-08-17T18:31:23Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > So the dev have to remind the players. Well, that already happens through the knowledge that each one has, if you are doing water boom in saguenay or in new england, and you do not build TP in a huron position to improve the collection of whales, it is not the fault of the devs, it is self-blame for not knowing or forgetting it. ---
**Author:** ![SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/similarowl0320/32/67342_2.png) [@SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SimilarOwl0320)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/34 "2021-08-17T20:57:02Z")
Exactly AssetiveWall! That is the first step! **1.** Native trading posts settlements should have a lower cost because they’re basically a barracks with one single unit under build limit thrown in the middle of the map. And you still waste 100wood to build a native embassy nearby your base. 300w to make 15 pikes…just bad **2.** Second step is balancing the build limit based on their category and not just random. I.e: archer unit: 18 units skirmisher unit: 16 units pikeman unit: 18 units cavalry unit: 14 units dragoon unit: 12 units cavalry archer unit: 14 units coyote runner unit: 16 units That will make balancing cards, minor civs, major civs much easier and predictable. **3.** Don’t consider cards while balancing them at first. **4.** Rebalance the crappy cards into being more useful (team more minor native, native lore etc) and nerf the ones that would be broken if natives are meta (i.e: that asian cards that increases speed by 20%): **5.** Create a cheap general tech in Fortress or industrial that can increase the max limit of minor natives by a bit. That will solve the dilemma of needing more settlements as the only way to increase the build limit. **6.** Now balance them taking cards in consideration (inca cards, native warrior combat) ---
**Author:** ![SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/similarowl0320/32/67342_2.png) [@SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SimilarOwl0320)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/35 "2021-08-17T21:01:41Z")
> [@EliteRiflemann](#): > > On the other hand, the natives are great, some units are very strong and their upgrades are very useful, but players pass on them simply because they forget they exist I STRONGLY disagree with you. I want to use minor natives but every time I try the risk is always just too high and the reward is just too little. Trading posts on settlements should be lower…that is the first step if you want me to use a random barracks around the map with one single unit (which I have no freakin’ idea whether they will be useful to me or not),with build limit and still get 100 wood to build a embassy. If stacking cards and playing as African civs, France or Inca is the only way to use them then they are far from integrated in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Dolphincup](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/dolphincup/32/29037_2.png) [@Dolphincup](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Dolphincup)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/36 "2021-08-17T21:23:38Z")
problem is that native TP and TR TPs are the same building. they’d have to split the building to change the cost, and that’s a UI mess. You can’t really change the cost of the building, you can only make the building more worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/operaticship743/32/104612_2.png) [@OperaticShip743](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/OperaticShip743)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/37 "2021-08-17T21:31:50Z")
Well, we are just in this forum to make them more attractive. What’s your proposal? The more points of view, the better. ---
**Author:** ![EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/eliteriflemann/32/134254_2.png) [@EliteRiflemann](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/EliteRiflemann)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/38 "2021-08-17T22:00:27Z")
I would say that the “Advanced Trading Post” shipment should provide you with a drip of exp of at least 0.8 exp / s to any TP built in a native village (and that is not like the ceque system, that works with all the tambo built), that way you can supply the exp that you may lack with a TP and a church. Is this worth a shipment and 220 beef? That is debatable, what is going to make it more feasible to build a TP in a native village? Of course. ---
**Author:** ![BusiestCarp6234](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/busiestcarp6234/32/65533_2.png) [@BusiestCarp6234](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/BusiestCarp6234)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:56am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/39 "2021-08-18T01:56:33Z")
I leave you a guide, African civ. are missing > **[Steam Community :: Guide :: All native alliances](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2270286841)** > > Comprehensive list of all native alliances available in the game. Provides lists of native warriors and unique trading post upgrades per native civilization, with unit descriptions, resource costs, an ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/3/e/3ea75edc1ba7357cfd8c6d39617859f94f90ad27.jpeg) Regarding the native embassy, its cost should be lowered to 0w or 25w and its construction limit should be limited to 2, since it is only useful to train native units closer. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 7:21am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/40 "2021-08-18T07:21:48Z")
I already made a thread to this topic [Make the old Minor Civilisations great again](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/make-the-old-minor-civilisations-great-again/138565) My idea is basically just give every minor civilisation (besides the Africans) an additional technology. In some cases old technologies and units should be reworked so they can have new features like poison damage. ---
**Author:** ![SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/similarowl0320/32/67342_2.png) [@SimilarOwl0320](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SimilarOwl0320)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736/41 "2021-08-18T08:59:52Z")
I’m aware of that. Yet, having two trading posts (Route tP and Native TP) might be the easiest of the solutions. Trickling XP is an improvement but it’s worthless: no one uses Church and if I want XP I’ll build a route trading post post anyway. They had to bypass a second window for UI when they made Embassy available for settlers and Dutch Envoy. =\ Perhaps it’s time to accept a 2nd window just like in Age of Empires II. [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/how-to-make-the-native-semi-civ-more-useful/162736.md?page=3)