Well, the Poles being the “Granary of Europe” historically, the Khmer with their advanced irrigation systems, Slavs don’t have as much of a reason for their bonus I think, but that’s still 2/3 of the civs you mentioned make historical sense. Regardless, pastures historically became worse than farms later on so they should be worse than farms late game at least. For balance reasons this is important as well since their should be no bonus that is good in every stage of the game.
Lands of Ukraine and Southwest Russia are very fertile.
Yes. Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe to this very day. It’s an appropriate bonus for sure.
Please replace the double blacksmith effect by attack upgrades available one age earlier, and give Khitans blast furnace. If it is too much, give it a half price for attack upgrades. Khitans is still too strong after the nerf
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I think we need to wait a bit longer to collect more game results. However, based on what I’ve gathered so far (partial post-patch data), the balance doesn’t look too bad, with win rates around 50% - 52% in Solo and Teamgames:
| RM 1V1 Bracket | Played Games | Winrate | 95 % CI (Wald) |
|---|---|---|---|
| ALL | 5247 | 50.35% | ± 1.34 % |
| < 800 | 599 | 52.15% | ± 3.98 % |
| 800 – 1200 | 2359 | 50.10% | ± 2.01 % |
| 1200 – 1800 | 2077 | 50.33% | ± 2.13 % |
| 1800+ | 212 | 48.15% | ± 6.66 % |
| RM TG Bracket | Played Games | Winrate | 95 % CI (Wald) |
|---|---|---|---|
| ALL | 8351 | 51.39% | ± 1.05 % |
| < 800 | 720 | 49.59% | ± 3.61 % |
| 800 – 1200 | 4348 | 51.25% | ± 1.47 % |
| 1200+ | 3283 | 51.98% | ± 1.71 % |
But really, take these numbers with a grain of salt. 212 games played at semi-pro or pro levels aren’t enough to draw strong conclusions. Also, players are still adapting to the new pastures.
In summary, Khitans seem strong but are no longer overpowered.
Edit: 04/07/2025 Tables updated with the latest post-patch data.
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No, I like it. But they shouldn’t get an economy bonus to go with it. They should be like Magyars.
Cmon, this civ is still too strong, Pasture economy is still too powerful (still 2 vills working for 20 wood discount with Khmer mechanics), they still can do silly all-ins with scouts and Light Cavalry with extra attack and faster training/upgrading.
They should competely lose the 25% faster training/upgrading bonus on scouts, the x2 attack upgrades boost is enough.
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Even they start with stone penalty, they will be just fine with pastures.
The x2 attack upgrade boosts improves khitan scouts to be about equivalent to Frank scouts (with armor upgrade). Except frank scouts get their bonus for free while Khitans have to pay for forging (and a blacksmith) first. Both technically lack bloodlines, so that won’t change anything in late feudal in this comparison, but it does when comparing against Huns (who do have 20% faster stables). I think Khitans still have one of the best scout rushes in the game, but it doesn’t do too great against archers (who should be pretty solid against all Khitan cavalry options, and good against their infantry options as well) and it doesn’t hold up in a prolonged scout war (when missing bloodlines will hurt)
Hera has stated that he believes the Khitans will be C-tier after the nerf. He may be overestimating the impact of the nerf, but if so, I doubt it’s to the point that Khitans will need another bonus removed.
cmfrydos has given some preliminary data, and it looks like the Khitans have reasonable win rates now. Doubled attack upgrades may be strong, but they still require some investment, and for infantry it’s strictly weaker than Burmese bonus, while for cavalry I think the doubled attack upgrades are still less impactful than bloodlines.
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He often does. But maybe that is not always the wrong take. In pro level just a small advantage can be accelerated to very big advantage. While that is not the case for lower levels.
What is that?
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Pros like to exaggerate things just to make them more clickbaity and overdramatic. Being good at the game and being able to not let your emotions cloud your judgment are different skills.
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Thx for the stats. When looking at them I now see a possible easy adjustment for the Pastures/Khitans.
Pastures get one less base herdable to be taken.
Khitans get the Bonus of “Pasturers collect + 10 % food”.
With these Changes Khitans would have an amazing food income rate from the Pastures which otherwise would be balanced. The Pasture economy would give a lot of food still, but need way more reseeding and more depending on the upgrades than farms. Especially in the lategame Khitans Pastures would be amazing - but given they aren’t that good of a lategame civ this wouldn’t be an issue.
Mongols and other civs that get Pastures with strong lategames could be balanced by just not getting the last Pasture upgrade.
Actually, I think if the “nerf” were actually a nerf Hera would be right. Khitans would have a Magyar type feel to them early on but then have cav fall off lategame as they have no bloodlines.
Perhaps they should make their creation speed bonus also only apply to scouts. This would reinforce a their identity as a cavalry civ and reduce their all over the place feel.
He is almost right in this case though. 48% W/R is B tier on top level.
Yeah but Khitans have Camel Rider. Also way better spear+skirm for late game.
As I understand it, Hera’s opinion that they would be C-tier was based mainly on them losing the extra food from herdables. He really valued the dark age aspect of the bonus.
Isn’t Ordo Cavalry at least as strong as Bloodlines? If so their cav doesn’t fall off in late game at all.
Really does depend on whether your fighting range units or not. Bloodlines probably better vs range. Or do cavalry only regenerates while units attacking and thus if you can’t close the distance, it’s useless.
Khitans are a cavalry civilization, so they have to have good cavalry. Trading Bloodlines in exchange for Ordo Cavalry makes an interesting trade-off, being a bit weaker to arrows in exchange for greater durability in melee in a unique way.
The Aztec one is even weirder. They get a special tech for their skirmishers, but they also lose to their generic counterparts if not microed properly, because they lack the final armor upgrade.
Perhaps no other unit ends up losing to its generic counterpart after receiving a bonus or unique tech.
Pastures should be made with less wood, skirmishers reflect 100% melee damage, Infantry +5 attack against ranged units. Calvary are immortal.