I thought the general experiment result is that Khitans pasture is basically hand cart farms (like 20% faster) in one vill no cost setting?
Edit: I am 50% sure that you / Ornulu were thinking about total food amount, I think our focus here is the collection rate (which is 20% faster)
Agree and disagree. Their lack of Bloodlines is really due to the balance of Castle Age, but the powerful Feudal Scouts have nothing to do with Bloodlines and Ordo. Higher food income from Herders, double effect Forging, and faster training of Scouts, each of these three has a greater impact to the Feudal Scouts than having access to Bloodlines or not. Assuming we lower the base efficiency of Herders, and remove the entire bonus to Trash units (it could be acceptable that not just to Scouts), having Bloodlines should actually be fine.
I also personally think it makes more sense to let nomadic people have Bloodlines and lose the bonuses to spearmen and skirmishers. Regarding Lamellar Armor, I would use +3 or +4 melee armor for foot soldiers to replace the magical and poorly explained reflection effect.
After all of above, I would lower the regeneration rate of Ordo to 1% or 1.5% per second. For a cavalry unit with 100 HP, that’s about 3 HP regenerated per strike, still decent actually. If this is considered too weak as an Imperial UT, I would like to swap the UTs.
There was a reply pointing out that the Ordo’s effect also works when cavalry attacks buildings. This cannot be overlooked.
In a close battle, regeneration is somehow equivalent to damage reduction. However, once they find a target with high health and low attack or no attack at all, especially a building, they can perform a large amount of healing. Rather than regeneration, the effect of Ordo can be considered as some kind of damage reduction, and quick self-healing when encountering buildings.
??? Pastures just have slightly more HP than Farms. If anything it’s currently even more a target cause they are so much more expensive.
Should they have camels or fire lancers?
No. Collection rate is the food collected in a certain amount of time once the pastures are built. That’s what Ornlu reports and that’s just 10% higher compared to generic farmers. Which is less than wheelbarrow farmers.
The extraordinary food collected in game is due to the additional difference from getting more vills on food at the same point of the game sort of like Teutons, and the build time saved.
Would like some link, since 10% and 20% (reported above) is quite a difference
Also you probably save wood on mills as well, normally you build mills around farms but you dont really need that for khitan.
I think Khmer has its farming rate reduced to 96% to offset no walking bonus - and its still much faster than ordinary farm, so I would imagine a 110% farm rate with Khitan would actually be much faster than 110%
Mongols had a 6% play rate and 55% winrate at higher elos before ballistics for scorpions was introduced. Even now nearly unbeatable on maps with extra hunt. The only reason why winrates didn’t shoot beyond that was because Chinese were more broken and overused at higher elos with 59% winrate.
Khitans has 62% ±2 % winrate which is nowhere close to 70. At your elos archer civs seem to have positive winrates against them so I think off meta civs might be their counter. Maybe players will start picking archer civs more often now and that can bring down the winrate stats which is why I suggest waiting to collect 3-4 weeks of additional data. Of course I could be completely wrong about this but its still good to see how the data scales at higher elos to better understand how to nerf.
I agree that these new strong civs have something overtuned in their early game bonuses that need small adjustments, but who’s going to pay and pick a new civ if its garbage and gets destroyed by the current meta civs. Like no one is currently playing Wei. What’s the point of releasing civs like that. Civ needs to be nerfed but it has to happen in small incremental steps so that it still stays decent like current Georgians. A lot of these people are suggesting the removal of 10% drop-off on herders which is a serious overnerf worse than what happened to Gurjaras. I’m just trying to make sure that doesn’t happen again due to the overhype.
Here you go. Jump to 15:01 to know the test setup and 18:44 to see the actual food collection rates comparison
Umm… both.
I don’t think there is such a strict definition of camel breeds in the game. Although Bactrian camels were not used for shock cavalry, if they were used in large numbers for military purposes in history, the civ would be considered to have access to camel units in the game.
In the case of the Khitan civ, you could also interpret this as the Qara Khitai possibly adopting the dromedary in Central Asia.
As for Fire Lancers I also think Khitan civ can have them. I think both Khitans and Mongols should have access to Fire Lancers, Rocket Carts and Lou Chuan instead of Mangonels and Cannon Galleons. Having these units implies the fact that they had adopted the Chinese primitive gunpowder weapons and navy system, but having no bonus or upgrade means that they were not strong in this in history.
Agree with this. I’ve advocated reducing the base efficiency of Herders rather than changing or removing the bonus.
Would like some link, since 10% and 20% (reported above) is quite a difference
Ornlus’s testing wasn’t very precise - he only tested each civ for 5 minutes. What you really want is to test from the moment a farm is seeded until it’s fully depleted - that’s the full lifecycle. The same applies to pastures. Measure the total food collected and the time taken, then calculate their ratio to get the average food per minute. That difference in testing method makes regular farms appear slightly better and Khitan pastures slightly worse, likely due to reseeding timings. This probably accounts for the ~10% difference.
I think my concern is that those civs tend to be nerfed once in a blue moon.
Georgians and Gurjaras was sitting there for months unchanged. Do you know how it feels for competitive people like me? Like hell. It was VERY frustrating for me and seems like gonna be frustrating this time as well
People abusing those civs in ladder (sometimes randomed into) and it just feels like I practice for nothing. What is the point of even playing against Gurjaras before (I did make lots of posts trying to find ways to deal with Gurjaras, in the end I just gave up)
I am aware that Mongols had 55% win rate. I would argue that 60% is 55% on top of 55%, because its a two step increment of 5% (Khitans - 1v1 Random Map | 1900+ (top 1%) - aoestats Khitans are actually 65% on arabia right now, and in my elo of 2300 I wont be surprised if its almost 70%)
I think nerfs and buffs (look at Wei noone is playing that, why isnt a buff on its way as well?) should be landed as soon as possible. Waiting and observing for months just looks so dumb.
Then they should lose light cav upgrade, bracer, husbandry, plate barding armor and maybe the fire lancer unit line too. Then we can happily pick Mongols, Franks and have a contest of which is shittier - Sicilians, Dravidians or Khitans.
Gurjaras were nerfed in 4 months. Then they were nerfed to the stone age in another 4 months. The approach they look with Georgians was more balanced and is what I’d like for Khitans.
Mayans had obsidian arrows for 8 years, Franks had 25% faster berries and Chivalry in castle age for 6 years. Chinese were broken at your level ever since the tc pop was increased to +10 from +5, for 2 years. And yet new civs being strong for 4-8 months seem to bother high level players like you A LOT.
Lets just say you practiced a couple of things and with that you started destroying Gurjaras or Khitans. Will you ever pay money to buy the DLC and try those civs? Why not play those civs yourself and have fun in the ladder, that’s the whole point of making a DLC with civs for ranked ladder. Disrupting the ladder order by introducing atleast 1 civ that outplays the current meta picks.
Of course not months but weeks. Maybe if you all pros play too many games everyday and we get 20+ games per matchup very soon, the changes could get pushed sooner.
I actually did complain about Chinese.
I did not play in Mayans era.
Franks is alright for most of the time being.
For context, I was only competitive in recent years, DID complain about mongols when I was 1k8 (but I think it’s more manageable when I go up), not really sure why you want to assume I only complain for new civs
Back then Franks had 25% faster berries, no Khmer farm, no eco bonus for Vietnamese, 10% farm rate and no detinets for Slavs, no dark age tc bonus for Persians, no lancers for Mongols. So they were relatively broken. Collectively there are very few of us who complained about such civs that were actually broken. And these legacy civs stayed too powerful for too long. But whenever something new comes up there are dozens of people coming up with insane nerfs and want those right away, not saying that’s you.
Anyways I’m not against a nerf, just want it to be small and specific to early game since Khitans winrate is highest in the 20-30 min window. And I want the nerf to happen after there are atleast 20 or 25 games per civ matchup at the highest level which might happen in a few weeks. That will give better insights on what could be an ideal nerf to the civ without making their weaknesses show up too early. There’s also a small chance for change in statistics. Like based on the current insights at 1900+, Ethiopians, Saracens, Portugese, Vikings seem to be doing good based on data from about a dozen games. Maybe fast xbow ballistics is a counterplay and people start picking these civs more often and Khitan winrate goes down. Not saying it will happen but there’s some chance and that’s why its good to wait and see what happens.
Then, their tech tree should be narrowed down. Like no faster production for trash unit. It should lack the upgrade of elite fire lancers. Change it to faster production for Steppe lancers and cavalry archers to delay its powerspike a bit. Removing xbow perhaps to force it to go for cavalry archers. Skirmishers should not benefit from UT. Khitans will be still above avg.
Also Ornlu’s test was faulty. Farms were pre-built. So they already had grown the food. And farmers temporarily worked faster.
The first two alone combined would probably be enough to drop them from top tier to below Jurchens/Wei. You’d be taking their strong economy and then dropping them to well below average. Everything else they have won’t matter much after that. Faster producing scouts with doubled forging OP? Won’t matter if you lack food.
Probably not much impact against castles - those deal a lot of damage quickly. And BBTs one-shot Khitan cavalry (only exception is heavy camels with all armor upgrades, and even then the BBT has to be missing multiple attack upgrades)
There is a good use case in using the camels to attack stationary buildings, but I’d expect that to mainly be a win-more mechanic. If you’re attacking buildings with cavalry, you’re probably already winning. It isn’t something you’d want to do with an enemy army close by - you don’t want to give your enemy free hits (or free conversions).
I actually agree on nerfs being minimal, like 10%->5% herdable or some small number changes, just that I think the changes should be made more frequently than now
We just need more people at your level and higher activity for more frequent changes. Otherwise it’s going to take time to see the impact it has. As far as Khitans goes, 1 or 2 minor early game specific changes might be enough imo to keep them good but not OP.
The bonus is basically +4 melee armour. Its a bad bonus because it makes a civ which ks already overfocused on melee fights even more focused on that
The civ design of the civ isnt just overtuned, its insanely messy