Reviving the thread for this video.
Throughout the video, Hera said 2 statements multiple times -
We all know against which unit, these 2 units are good - the one and only “Knight”. If I’m not mistaken, this is the first time ever pros made a tier list together. And they indirectly admitted knights are stronger than archers even at their level.
I think regular knight is not broken. But I think Poles cavalier is certainly broken. Also burgundians paladin half cost research is really broken in TG
Half cost pala is balanced by the lack of bloodlines.
True. I hope the gambeson and pike cost reduction changes the meta to some extent.
As far as Hera’s tier list, it’s funny how every single time he does one just before the patch and incorrectly estimates the impact of some changes and calls it out later. He mentioned how Hindustanis are a garbage civ now, in his Mar 24th stream while playing against Heartt.
At least he got it right. They were one of if not the worst civ in NAC4.
I think Pros tried without knowing how garbage became Hindustanis with villager nerf. As far as I remember, Hindustanis lost vast majority of the games played in NAC4.
Here comes the nerf to knights. Pikeman upgrade cost cheaper. 11
Seems like Knights are still “untouchables” 11
I’ve had an idea for this for a long time but never could get an optimized way to do it.
I am speeking about “trapping” farms with piles. There are several ways to do this.
First, it’s important that the prepped farms can’t be distinguished from normal ones - in a way that it’s also not possible to get that via a mod.
Then there are 3 different ways to trigger them. They can either be triggered
a) manually
b) by stepping on them
c) not triggered at all, but instead permanent
The damage can also be dealt as
a) One-time effect (BADABOOM)
b) Over time (decaying)
c) Over time with a limit (not decaying, but the damage output is capped)
Finally the damage can be spreaded
a) flat for each unit affected
b) as a total spreaded over all the affected units
c) as a mix of boht
d) with less intensity for each additional unit (like the first takes 100 %, the second 50 %, the third 33% and so on)
All of these have certain strengths and weaknesses for the implementation.
But why is it countering Knights/ cavalry? Cavalry has the highest health pool per unit. Because the piles trap deals bonus damage to cavalry. Also a bit to infantry, but mostly to Cavalry. Also the other kinds of units are less affected cause you usually don’t cross farms with a bunch of them. Archery type units want to shoot the farms before going on them - and Infantry is usually more used as a macro raiding tool. Meaning you want to spread them over a big area rather than trying to get a bunch of them in through a single hole in the opponent defence. Ofc when you have the option, this is absolutely viable for cavalry aswell - meaning these trapped farms only work in conjecture with well-defended bases: Walled and/or obstacled with buildings so the cav can’t just get in from multiple angles.
And this is also probably the biggest weakness of the concept - cause to use it effectively on open maps you would need to arficially obstacle as much possible entrances to your base, trying to funnel the opponent Cavalry thruogh single trapped gaps. A way to play that traditionally already upset agressive cavalry players.
And as much as I’m of the opinion that these spoiled cav abusers should also at some point take the bitter pill, the reality is that it’s unlikely devs will actually do it. Cause from experience we know how sensible they react if there is only a liitle thing other playstyles get to change the “good established relations” with Knights being the apex predators.
Implementing something that can wipe out entire Knight armys like mangonels and onagers do with archers is a very good way to upset them. Even if it would be their own fault when they run 30 knights through a narrow gap - it’s their natural impression that Knights can be run through this without fearing to be viped out in an instance. Even if this would be only fair as since the game came out Archery type units were in constant danger to be badaboomed - even from distance - it’s not to be made for Knights who in their mind already have at least one to many counter.
One issue I had with the actual design of the traps is the discrepancy in effect vs Knights and light cav. As light cav have a way lower helth pool and are cheaper - as long as it’s not a total damage cap - they will usually be more effected than knights, which isn’t intended.
One way to kinda balance this, at least for the very lategame, is to make the traps cost a healthy amount of gold. But in the midgame this would still effect the light cav way more than the knights.
I’m currently leaning into this design concept:
Pile Trap - cost 30 G, 30 W, 30 s to “tech” on every individual farm
One-time manual use. When triggered damages all enemy units standing on it. The base value is one, but it also deals an additoinal 4 spread over all enemy units standing on it:
(This means when 1 unit stands on it it takes 5 * x, when 2 stand on it they each take 3 * x, four unit take 2 * x damage)
Where x is true damege: 10 base, +10 against camels and infantry, and +20 against cavalry.
Meaning when a single enemy Knight stands on it it takes (1 + 4 / 1) * (10 + 20) = 150 damage. 2 Knighst and 2 Archers standing on it would take (1 + 4 / 4) * x damage. Meaning he Knights would take 60 damage each and the archers 20 damage each.
So with higher numbers the Toatl economic damage goes up, but the units don’t die from a single trap anymore. This is intentional to encourage and revard good reactions and healing up injured units from these traps. In an ideal world at higer elos this is intended to add a dynamic where the attacked player can mostly “buy” some time with these traps to build up a more healthy defence with pikes. Whilst the cavalry player would be encouraged to add monks and Siege to put more pressure on the opponetn, trying to open up some new gaps which aren’t trapped.
Ofc a different question if it actually then palys out in the way as intended.
As again the Knight fetishists try to manipulate the perception and claim other untis would be too strong in the meta it has become obvious to me:
The only way to stop that Spiral is to finally break the status of the “untouchable Knight”. We all know these characters that try to second the school bully because they are needy to feel better than everybody else but don’t have the strength or character to stand their own ground.
And in this game the Knights are the Bullies. Which always get away unpunished. We have to change that.
I am for adding a small non-cost tech “Nobility” that requires 30 seconds of research before you can train Knights OR Camels in Castle Age.
Well, with monk nerf and scorpion buff, I think it is fair to nerf knight a bit. Tech like chemistry is required to unlock powerful unit, bombard cannon. But I don’t think camels need that to unlock.
I think it would be fair to treat the “same type counter” the same way as the unit it counters.
Would it be a dramatic blunder not to do so? Probably not. But I don’t want to deal with the possible “unfair treatment” outleash there.
A streamer said that AOE2 will disappear if devs nerf knights directly. Strong units make players’ motivation.
I want to learn pike defence micro or reduce barrack cost from 2nd one by 15-25 wood (Malians barrack cost wouldn’t reduce).
I would try with a little nerf in training time. Like 35 sec