The story is very good, but you haven’t told me what’s so weak about HRE in Feudal age.
Not only do you have to look at the statistics, but know how to read them and ask yourself why HRE has a bad Winrate in Early Game.
Unfortunately, many players tend to follow a metagame by not main the civ because it is theoretically optimal “in all cases”, but I think you have to look at those good players who do main it (Fitzyhere for example) and not those who play 6-7 different civs and they can’t drill down well (unfortunately in tournaments they force you to play like this AoE2 style and you have to play more civs).
I wish to join this conversation too. Not HRE player nor never played HRE, but as I understand.
Prelates should be capped to 3 prelates per HRE
Aachen chappel is ridiculously strong providing 40% faster rates for villagers. It should be par with other civs like chinese and reduced to 20% same with prelate buffs
Regnitz Cathedral - is super ridiculous when relics are obtained 900g per minute is too strong especially when HRE can fast castle and results many civs to play against castle age units with feudal trying to stop their relics and with increased movement speed that prelates received are actually helping them. Suggestion is to nerf 900g per minute to 450g per minute. Also in team games obtaining 3 relics is far too easy and should be made more difficult for example extra 150gold is only given after there is 5 relics in 2v2 match and not 50g extra per relic
Palace of Swabia - One of the most broken landmarks in game. Either increase the price to be worth of 3-4 TC’s + imperial cost or nerf the villager production to 20% faster and cheaper and normal imperial cost.
Then nerf MAA not to be able to fight toe to toe with knights or lancers. Its ridiculous that only HRE MAA can only fight toe to toe with heavy horses so they should take extra dmg from horses
My last post was getting too long. Let’s speak strategic logic.
Currently the meta with HRE is either to fast castle or semi fast castle. In both scenarios you want to readily gather up 3+relics to hit that 900 gold/min. Then you afford a heavy knights spam and harass or go the most popular way of following up that castle age up with a quick palace of swabia.
Now why would you never go Burgave Palace (the castle age batch 5 units barracks)? Obviously the 900 gold per min alternative…BUT also you would NOT be able to use it optimally with a fast castle age up!! If you fast castle then you DO NOT have the resources to immediately batch 5 MAA or 5 landsknecht…and you’re not fast castle to batch 5 Spearman… (unless? You’re gonna quickly upgrade said Spearman and get magonels?? Not bad idea). Alternatively if you semi fast castle then you would already have the resources to make 5 barracks in transition to castle so what would be the benefit of having the Burgave Palace as is???
With my ideas implemented: starting with a prelate at the start of the game already on the field and having 50 less gold, HRE would have a safe and fast Dark age transition (and the option for a Dark age min aggression). This would also lend well into feudal play in general.
With the regnitz having only 2 slots for relics and generating 450 gold/min for 1 relic and 600 gold/min for 2 relics? the current meta playstyle would be perseved.
With the Burgave Palace now allowing the Spearman +3melee armor Imperial age upgrade and giving all wood/gold discount up to 25 gold, if you place a relic inside it; you’d create an new playstyle of early castle aggression. It would be a version of the abbasid infantry siege but with much stronger infantryman in castle age and it would blend well with aggressive towers and keeps placements using additional relics and flooding batches of units at the enemy. Lastly it would then make sense to have a cheap Imperial age up option with Palace of swabia to allow you to pause the ultra aggressive castle play to catch up in villager count!!
I totally agree.
While it’s true that on open maps hre can be somewhat vulnerable to early pressure, the moment they reach castle and get all relics is pretty much game over.
The biggest issue with HRE is that most other civs are forced to rush early or die, on more closed maps this is a big issue. If you try to go 2 tc or try to do any other form of economic focused game(with exception of fishing on deep water) they will reach imperial way earlier and will be able to kill you before you even have the chance to get there.
I honestly think that regnitz cathedral should be toned down as well as the cost to age up to imperial with the Palace of swabia. In compensation to this they can improve the minewerk Palace by maybe reducing the cost of the upgrades even further and/or buffing their unique upgrades so that hre can have more options on the early game.
Imo and I believe the statistics will support my claims HRE VS:
MONGOL, FRENCH, ENGLISH
All 3 civs have some combination of aggressive dark age feudal age play and/or comparable economic play vs HRE. So naturally you’ll play defensively vs these civs which lends well into your fast castle or semi fast castle playstyle.
both civ do present an opportunity to hit them in feudal but both put you on a timer if you choose to stay in fedual. Rus eco bonuses are comparable to HRE’s with decent defensive options and they also would prefer to go defensive fast castle and play the relic game…so why not do it faster than they as HRE? Delhi a slow starter so you can haras them but if you take too long that sacred site tech and efficient production tech and all the other free ■■■■ they get will erase whatever eco advantages you had over them in feudal if you stick around in feudal too long.
Both highly defensive and boomy factions. China more so defensive with fast towers and repeater crossbow and effectively 3 TCs dynasty options… do you really want to stick around vs them playing a long feudal age? Why not beat them to the punch by fast castle relic then swabia then crush them especially now siege is nerfed? Abbasid not as defensive as China but abbaisd can hold their own and you don’t wanna try to flirt with fresh food TC defensive boom in a prolong feudal play. So again better to counter their boom strat with your own…fast castle relic swabia…
So this is my take why feudal play is less optimal vs all the matchups on a standard open land map.
Last comment. It’s not that feudal is impossible in any of these matchups …it’s just 900 gold per min is just that much better than most any fedual play on land maps.
I have not told you about going all in in Feudal or staying forever in that age (ocasionally it can be done when they adjust Regnitz and Swabia).
Many players, even against aggressive civilizations that you mentioned (Mongols need a small nerf in Ovoo) and against civs not so aggressive (depending on the exploration) should stay longer to defend themselves (especially on open maps) and not look for a Semi FC or FC as they are greedy because they know that there is a broken strat with Regnitz and Swabia and that mistake is made a lot even at high levels (Hera vs Bee Winner Stays on) and is the reason why the stats give HRE poor WR in the early game, nothing more.
The economy of HRE with the production of a prelate at the beginning is brutal in itself, so it is better not to propose something that can break that.
when would you ever decided to forgo having 5 relics in your regnitz?
You will not, you will fight for those 5 relics, but you are unlikely to get them, which is how I think war games and fight over control should be played.
Currently getting 3 relics is simply not much of a challenge as your prelates are already out.
The win rate is lowest for HRE across alllll elo ??? How is it you supposed it’s SIMPLY bc nobody knows how to stay in feudal just long enough to defend before transitioning into the regnitz???
The statistics does not support your claim.
You just admitted that you inadvertently want to make putting relics insides ANY other structure MOOT!!! That’s a poooooor game design.
IMO you can STILL incentives HRE to want all the relics by equating benefits of having all the relics regardless of which landmark age up you choose. I remember hearing demuslim suggesting that all current structures that already accept a relic should also generate gold. I agree with that idea HOWEVER the rate should all be less than that generation in a mosque/chapel.
Regnitz= 1 relic (450 gold/min) 2 relics (600 gold/min)
Chapel= 100 gold/min per relic
All defensive buildings = 75 gold/min per relic
Burgave= 1 relic allows an all wood cost discount and up to 25 gold discount on all batched units.
The low rate of HRE wins in Early Game is because they want to move to Castles as soon as possible, it is usually a sin to not spend more time in Feudal against certain civs (going to Regnitz is a very good strategy that is liked).
I’m really struggling to understand your point… what is the CURRENT alternative to meta gameplay in order to have better success in feudal age? And why is virtually NO ELO RANGE ABLE TO EXECUTE what you apparently find to be so simple???
Please help me understand you please??
also I hope aoe4world will develop same metrics for individuals gamers; I find that relevant bc earlier you claim meta players JUST DONT GET how to win early with HRE… so I want to able to look up individuals pure HRE players and see if their early game win rates are any different from the norm. You’d have to concede if we had that metric and the individual pure HRE players have virtually the same type of success over the length of a game…the issue isn’t simply “stay longer and defend.” Likewise if the data suggest the opposite I’ll concede the point.
Last point the game you referenced is a horrible example of what USUALLY happens to HRE players!! first off China tower rush is very strong vs most factions. Secondly hera had bad berry spawns and deer spawns both being extremely exposed. Thirdly as soon as hera saw the first tower he adjusted his macro to attempt to defend in feudal? Also, according to beasty, he believes hera was out of practice and IMHO it looked it bc he just let China surround him with towers.
…so even when the guy YOU suggested…a top player and HRE specialist… appears to have the same trend where the majority of games fitzy has lost are under 25 mins… you STILL want to believe HRE early game is fine???
HRE players loose usually loose in feudal because they try to rush to castle against early aggression instead of making an army in age2.
As it is its hard to tell how good or bad hre age2 is because most players will just try to rush to castle to get relics even if there is a high risk of them dying to early pressure due to how strong the regnitz cathedral is.
Yea this is the case most of the time. They are very predictable. Trying to scout relics they forget to scout enemies. I just tower rush them. Its gg if they dont scout and have no army. I think the best suggestion was to reduce gold for 300/min to 200/min and increase capacity to 4 or 5. 5 capacity may cause issue in team games.
Start hre with a prelate on the field at the start of the match. Remove 50 to 100 gold from their starting resources.
Change the regnitz to only accept 2 relics max. 1 relic gives 400 gold/min but 2 relics cap at 600 gold per min (I’m open to 700 to 750 for 2 relics??)
Change the burgave to allow for a wood and gold discount units up to 25 gold off per unit and 20 wood off per unit. Also allow for the Spearman buff from Imperial to be tech in castle IFF you build the Burgave. (Maybe tie the discount to having a relic in the land mark)
All buildings that currently can house a relic should generate 75% gold/min compared to a church housing the relic.
Leave swabia as is.
Lastly maybe Change the blacksmith landmark to 30% discount??
Again the issue with HRE is it’s regnitz with 2+ relics or bust… especially if you fast castle… there needs to be other viable and equally powerful options.