HRE - Uniqueness, mechanic and army rant. There is a lot of potential lying fallow

is a joke.
They should realy look into the rus monk to make him right.
To fit the HRE thematic the monk should be able to attack too and buffs the units around them after he hits someone. To buff single units is so unefficent that nobody uses it.

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this will be an option or the landsknecht is able to buff units arround.

I think 5 units will be to migthy but 2 or 3 units will be ok maybe only MAA or spermann will be fine even

I have always been an infantry guy, so the HRE is my favorite Civ, despite the facte that they are somewhat a weaker faction.
You are right, the landsknecht is not worth their price and should be stronger. The only reason i continue playing with the HRE is the unique upgrades for the man at arms and the Catedral bonus for the relics.

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HRE seems not be focused on the holy orders, the religion mechanic is focused around the bishoprics so buffing individual units out of combat makes sense thematically. The issue is if you are buffing individual units out of combat, 30 second buffs is too short to effectively make use of at all, it needs to be like 60 seconds or something.

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At the moment I play the MAA rush with the meinwerk its still funny but i play only vs hard and very hard ai so they are not so great with dealing a rush

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Did anyone manage to get HRE mastery yet?
Having hard time beating Ai on hardest.

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just max resources dark age build 200 spearman and siege enemy landmarks if you want to cheese it.

I got it a while ago. I was one of the lucky few to not encounter the problems with the poor wording on their challenges. I beat the hardest ai by simply doing an all-in 2 barracks and tower proxy with spears next to the AI’s base.

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Hey guys,

I found a list of the civilizations unique technologies at Age of Empires IV | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom. Thanks for that :wink: .

So Im listing/coping and short commentating at all to show how plane the HRE is in comparison and that there is objectivly more to add here to make it deeper.*

Abbasid Dynasty

Composite Bows, Camel Barding, Camel Handling, Camel Support, Camel Rider Shields, Medical Centers, Improved Processing, Agriculture, Boot Camp, Teak Masts, Faith, Presercation of Knowledge, Phalanx, Armored Caravans, Grand Bazaar, Spice Roads, Fresh Foodstuffs

The Abbasids have many unique technologies and I thinkg nobody will complain with there uniqueness and how they feel. A complain that I would understand is that they have only 4 wings to age up (“landmark choices”) but they make it good again with there insane felxible army composition. They have Camels in 2 Variants, culverins and can build siege with infantery. A very unique civ army wise imo.

Chinese

Reload Drills, Ancient Techniques, Pyrotechnics, Imperial Examination, Extra Hammocks, Reuseable Barrels, Battle Hardened, Extra Materials, Handcannon Slits

I thing I dont have to say something about china xDD. The technologies here arnt the most but they are insanly strong. Pyrotechnics isinsane alone and buffs every gundpowder unit from them by range what is unfair imo but I hope they will hit china with a nerf hammer soon.

Delhi Sultanate

Armored Beasts, Siege Elephant, Forced March, Village Fortresses, Honed Blades, Tranquil Venue, Patchwork Repairs, Loockout Towers, Reinforced Foundations, All-Seeing Eye, Efficient Production, Sanctity, Swiftness, Zeal, Hearty Rations, Slow-Burnung Defenses

So before all. Im taking the state of Dehli after all research bugs are fixed !
There looking great ! What makes me said from a HRE players view, is that they need only 2 technologies to make there Man at arms better than the HRE ones. Honed Blades and Forced March are insanly good to get the Maa at the enemy and get there work done. Sadly there better at that… good for them. There have even good and flexible tech for there scholars too, to boost productions or fighting power. And even a “boring” tech like slow burning defenses is double as strong as the HRE variant but i will go back on it.
Overall good after bugfixes,

English

Network of Citadels, Enclosures, Arrow Volley, Setup Camp, Armor Clad, Shipwrights, Shattering Projectiles

OK? I think we all see that this is realy plane. The English would deserve a bit more too imho expecially lategame aka imperial. I dont know what but we are here in the HRE ttopic so please englsih guys get some good suggestions out :wink:

French

Crowssbow Stirrups, Gambesons, Royal Bloodlines, Enlistment Incentives, Long Guns, Cantled Saddles, Chivalry

In comparison to the english I´m fine with the low amount of tech here because the frenchs are overloaded with boni from the start and even things like royal attilery arnt listed here too. So I thing there quite fine right know.

Mongols

Whistling Arros, Yam Network, Piracy, Superior Mobility, Monastics Shrines, Additional Torches, Raid Bounty, Stone Bounty, Siha Bow Limbs, Stone Commerce

Mongols are mongols lul. There strong,fun and a bit over the edge. I think nowbody will complain that they are a fantastic designed civ.

Rus

Fine Tuned Guns, Boyars Fortitude, Mounted Precision, Knight Sabers, Cedar Hulls, Clinker Construction. Siege Crew Training, Wandering Town, Blessing Duration, Improved Blessing, Saints Reach, Banded Army, Doublle Time, Castle Watch, Castle Turret

In my opinion Rus is the best civ in the game ! There amazing in land/open maps and the best on water. They are the best designed civ in my opinion and everything falls in comparison to them. Good job but pls make all the others nearly 80% of them PLEASE.

HRE

Slate and Stone Constructions - lol for real? +5? Dehli gets +10 fire armor so double the power (only def builds ok)
Bendedictions - useless tech for real
Reinforced Defenses - ok to good tech if ur bunkering up but nothing more
Devoutness - one of the view good ones to double down to a civ mechanic we allready have
Marching Drills - nesseseary but not good enought inmy opinion. Should be 15-20%. Its bad in comparisons with Froce March from Dehli.
Heavy Maces + Two handed Weapons - together the are a good upgrade but u have to research 2 techs at the same Age and it feels that the only reason this is ingame is that the model designers made several cool looking models for the Maa
Fire Sations - ehm ok? Sea battles are often won by massing ships so it would be overwhelmed. Maybe its good on hybritmaps were u dont commit to much to water
Inspired Warrios - this tech is a joke. The prelate has to stand still and is bufing every unit single target. Its usless to try to buff a whole army. The buff is runing out before he or they finish there job …
Riveted Chain Mail - hers is a good one after spears aka bracing is fixed but it will only buffs them vs other meeles. Thats ok but not amazing but sadly way better than nearly all of the rest.

Please give ur Opinions to the techs too. But this is the reason im always saying that the HRE is in such a bad state. There looking amazing and there art and sounddesign is amazing too but there tech and army cause of that is borderline plane and blanked even with fixed bracing bugs.

They need good working Landsknechte and at least one extra special Units to get there own flavor… Maybe a longer range gunpowder Unit to match the chinese for example.
PLEASE.

@SavageEmpire566 Can u please say something to this topic and whole discussion here. We and I know that ur a Community manager and not in a/the balance / dev team but can u please communicate to us If this problems and disscutions were transportet to the Dev Teams? Are they in the Devs Minds ?
U see that this topic is not falling off and gets even more own topics. PLEASE say something

2 Likes

I see a lot of people avocating sweeping changes. What would a couple of small changes be capable of? I humbly propose the following:

  1. New upgrade for Landsknechte that gives them the “brace” ability against cavalry. This makes them do slightly less dps than a spear man in one-on-one battles vs Cav but their AOE damage easily makes them much better in bigger battles.

  2. Prelates holding a relic can wololo to inspire army dudes, should make it more attractive to send out a body guard while grabbing relics as well as help when pushing for the end-game.

All in all I think we’ll see what relic has planned soon, after all they said the wanted to push other civs up to the level of the Mongols rather than nerfing stuff so I’m hopeful for future changes :slight_smile:

Largely I agree with this post. Delhi only gets the fire armor for outposts and keeps though which is why it is +10, HRE’s also protects landmarks, but both techs feel kinda weak tbh as in imp, siege is the way buildings usually die, not torches.

Venediction would be fine if it was more than 15%, China gets 100% for non defensive buildings as a passive, wth is even 15% construction speed (pretty much only in your base),

Fire stations is fine, most civs have really meh dock techs and HRE is already a top 3 water civ, it helps you when you fight on your docks a good amount.

Inspired warriors just needs to last longer, makes sense to have a prelate give the buff to reinforcements or before you engage like blessing warriors to go to the holy land. The issue is half the time the buff is gone by the time units get to the fight).

Riveted chain mail is actually sleeper high tier tech, it makes late game and trash army HRE so much better (would be much better if brace bug fixed).

Benediction is useless and not necessary. No matter how much percentage. It should be changed into something completely different. It should either boost the army or the Prelate performance. Building speed for inspired workers is lame and really… Who cares? If it were passive, okay. But as a bonus buff to inspiration? That’s just lackluster and annoying. This tech could be something cool, but it’s not.

@KettleBunny

Haleluya. the CORRECT way.

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Honestly, they should give more options for AoE passive buffing while holding a relic to prelates. Since most of the time, you’ll have Regnitz Cathedral which can only house 3 relics anyway, for any above 3 you can use it to buff your army by having a prelate with a relic, that way you can make Benediction and Inspired Warriors permanent in the area around the prelate, while 30 sec timer is on buff when the unit leaves the area.

As for Landsknechts rework, I said it all in my early post.

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!

Since this thread’s been quiet for a while now, I decided to play with the graphics a bit on the Landsknecht update.
So let’s go from the start.


Now, we all know by now how infamously weak the Landskneckts are, so much so that even regular spearmen are more durable, not just because they have more HP, but also because they have a specific upgrade that grants them +3 melee armor. So the best way to fix this would be to just raise their HP to be equal to spearmen (because I honestly don’t see the reason why they should have more of it when they have an armor upgrade to begin with), or raise their HP just a little, but give them more armor, but not so much that would make them equal to spearmen with armor upgrade, to make it more balanced.

Now, let’s move to the actual update for the Landsknechts to have: versatility.

3. UPDATE

Wondering what the icons are?

Zweihandler would be the default for the unit, aka the same as it is now.

Poleaxe would allow them to gain spearmen’s ability for bracing, as well as gain bonus damage vs cavalry units.
And if the question comes in why bother to build the spearmen then anyway if they’ll just get replaced, remember that spearman, while costing the same food, is much cheaper to make since they cost 20 wood, whereas Landsknecht costs 100 gold.

And finally, Arquebus would replace the need for Holy Roman Empire to have Handcannoneer units altogether, making them cheaper, but not as much as Rus’ streltsy, and with less HP than them.
The only trade-off that would be required for this particular ability, so you wouldn’t be able to just use gunpowder units the moment you reach Imperial Age in the middle of an encounter, would be to have you first research Chemistry.
5. Ranged upgrade

And lastly, the versatile abilities would need to have a global cooldown of, let’s say 15-20 seconds, so you wouldn’t be able to spam the switching ability constantly.

So in an ideal world, without the Elite Army Tactics upgrade, a fully upgraded and reworked Landsknecht would look something like this.

Thanks for reading, I’ll come back once I deal with the Prelate update.

7 Likes

I realy like ur idea @Turmoil925 :+1:

It feels realy good if a faction has a unit with some abilitys on hotkey like englisch Longbowman or the khan.
HRE hasnt one yet so there would be no problem with 2 units of that kind.

Even the seletion of weapontypes are good selected because its only makes u play and use them diffrently for the problems u have. Your enemy would have to all weapon types the archer as a counter in equal resources. So its quite fair and obvius with what unit the enemy can counter them.

2 Likes

Alright, time to work on the other HRE unique unit.

So overall Prelate on its own is already good when it comes to boosting your economy, especially in the early and mid game.
1. Base buff

Unfortunately, however, his usefulness becomes diminished in the late Castle Age after you’ve collected all the relics for the Regnitz Cathedral (if you’ve built that landmark instead of Burgrave Palace), and Imperial Age, because all they’ll be relegated to in the end is dealing with the economy, which kind of makes the Civ lose the point of being HOLY Roman Empire.

Now, the developers did try to put in the upgrades in the Monastery to make the Prelates more versatile in the later game and not be a one-note pianist, but unfortunately, that falls short on several accounts.

Devoutness is fine because it just boosts Prelates already unique villager gather speed boost by 10%, making it 50% in the end.
Icon1

Benediction and Inspired Warriors on the other hand are useless:

Icon2
For the first one, you need to sacrifice one of the Prelates to stand by the villagers who are building, whereas he could be boosting gathering, and even then the construction boost just isn’t paying off. To be worth researching it would require it to be at least double the current speed, which means 30%.

Icon3
The second one has the bigger fault that’s preventing the Prelate to be useful outside of economic boost. Being able to bless military units and not just villagers seems good on paper, but then you have to take into account the fact that the Prelates need to be in close proximity to the frontlines where the encounters take place to be able to bless the armies and even then, the blessing has a 4-second cooldown, lasting only 30 seconds. There’s simply too much danger to have the Prelates be at the range where anyone can just pick them off, and you’re unable to have just one be able to bless your whole armies, and trying to have more than one feels wasteful since the same danger persists.

There is a unit, however, with this kind of purpose that exists in the game already solely to boost the fighting capability and it does it well: The Rus Warrior Monk.


5. +2

You only need one, and with a single attack it boosts the damage of every unit in the proximity, and since it has a lot of HP it means it will take a lot of beating, giving you time to retreat, and since it’s cavalry, the extra speed makes the engagement and disengagement easy.

That task is impossible for a Prelate to achieve since he’s got no fighting capabilities, he’s got low HP, and he’s slow, There is, however, a way to go around the problem, and it comes down to the same mechanic for which all the other monks in the game exist, but are especially necessary for Holy Roman Empire:

RELICS

Now I’m aware that currently, the Regnitz Cathedral is the be-all-end-all choice for HRE simply because it provides gold generation that would otherwise take 5 garrisoned relics, but let’s say that for example, even after you’ve got 3 relics, you deprive your opponent of the 4th one as an added bonus, or you chose to build Burgrave Palace instead, that you can use the relics in another way.

6. Update

Notice a newly added button under the “Conversion” button?

This is the new version of “improved blessing”; keep the upgrade purchase as a way of balancing it out, but now, instead of having to force the Prelate to get into the thick of trouble, he can hold a relic and bless multiple villagers who are building, and military units, while being at a safe distance through an aura, that’s similar to “conversion”, but in a different color.


And should the units leave the projected aura, it would apply the 30-second duration to the buff, until they re-enter it.

This way, the Prelate can remain obscure from the enemy’s vision and still boost the units with the ability that exists in the game.

Thank you for listening, and enjoy your day, fellow Romans.

8 Likes

Calling them romans is generous to say the least but other than that its a fun suggestion :slight_smile:

3 Likes

I am loving the latest ideas so far! They are great and adress the right stuff. I’ve also been working on how to overhaul the HRE and I will post it shortly. I’ll open a new thread, but will also post it here. I will edit this post then.

Edit:

Here is my new thread: [HRE] Suggestion for the devs: How to improve/change the HRE!

The HRE is a civ that has certain powerspikes, but all in all feels rather unfinished and like a one trick pony. If they don’t get relics, they are not competitive. They rely too much on one way to play and I intend to change that with my ideas. I try not to go too far overboard, but still feel the urge to change quite a bit, because the current state does not really convince me. I feel like there are only certain maps that are good for the HRE and one or two ways to play them. The first idea might be something for an expansion of the game as I doubt we will see completely new units via a patch. All the other ideas are working with what’s already in the game and aim to improve the gameplay for the HRE. Here we go:

  • [New Unit] The Ritterbruder: This is a unit that can only be trained in the monastery starting in age III. It has knight stats, but with +2/2 armor and +20 hp. It will have a seperate elite upgrade that’s not shared with knigths. On top of that the Ritterbruder has an aura that inspires nearby units. The aura radius could be 1 or 2 tiles (whatever feels okay) with an upgrade to increase radius by 1 more tile. The Ritterbruder is a bit sturdier than normal knights, but can improve other units. They cannot inspire themselves. Their costs should be somewhere around 175f and 175g. They need to be expensive. Their place on the battlefield is to improve the fighting abilities of mainly melee units.

  • [New Civ Bonus] Regnitz Cathedral does not give 300% gold for relics anymore, but instead the HRE in general gains 200% more gold from relics. This is a baseline civ bonus that comes without any landmarks and applies to monasteries, docks, towers and keeps. 5 relics would thus give you 1000 gold per minute, while 3 only give 600.

  • [New Regnitz Cathedral] The Regnitz cathedral can now garrison up to 9 prelates. Each prelate will gather 0.75 gold per viallager per minute. It’s called “sale of indulgences”. With 9 prelates garrisoned and 100 villagers, the Regnitz would give 675 gold per minute. It would give a slight gold tickle for castle age, but really starts to pay off in imperial age or late castle depending on your playstyle as it is a landmark for booming. The Regnitz will no longer be able to hold relics.

  • [New Burgrave Palace] The Burgrave Palace gets changed to: Build two non-siege military units for the price of one. This also applies to prelates. Ritterbrüder, however, would be excluded from this as they are a monastery only unit. With this landmark the HRE is able to apply castle age pressure and gains an advantage in collecting relics thanks to the cheaper prelates. The Brugrave Palace becomes weaker the longer the game lasts, but gives you an edge in castle age. While the Regnitz is for booming, the Brugrave is for a strong early castle age.

  • [New Meinwerk Palace] In addition to its current bonus, research time should also be decreased by 25%. On top of that allow 10 units to be garrisoned. Maybe also give it defensive capabilities of a non upgraded tower: It only shoots when units are garrisoned.

  • [New Swabia Palace] This is actually just a nerf in numbers. Make Swabia a little bit weaker. Increase villager cost and build time in that manner that Swabia counts as 2.5 TCs. I dunno how to nerf it exactly, just make it a little bit weaker.

  • [New Elzbach Palace] In addition to its current bonus the Elzbach Palace now also decreases the cost and build time for Keeps altogether by 25%.

  • [New Inspired Warriors] Prelates can still inspire (the Ritterbruder is an addition, not a replacement) military units after research, but the duration is increased by 100% to effectively 60 seconds. Inspired Warriors also improve attack speed by 15%. So: 15% more dmg, 15% more attack speed, 1/1 armor. Maybe make the 15% attack speed bonus an imperial age tech.

  • [Prelate] Increase inspiration range (both eco and military) by 1 tile in the imperial age. Make inspiration an auto cast option. Thus the prelate either heals or inspires and is not caught in the middle not knowing what his role is. Prelates and all other religious units except Warrior Monks should be excluded from the all-army command. It’s so annoying. If you want monks with your army, give them a group and do it that way. Or use the idle religious units key. In this manner it is easier to manage your army and you don’t pull units that are not supposed to be pulled. This change is very necessary for HRE and Delhi and the other civs would not be too sad about it either, I assume.

  • [Prelate, Monks, Scholars, Shamans…] Allow a-click healing and inspiring. Allow a-click healing for all the other civs as well except for the Warrior Monk. He should probably also get an autocast so he can be used as a pure healer if needed.

  • [New Benediction Tech] Increase building speed from 15% to 25%. In addition to that allow Prelates to move 25% faster as well. Prelates need to be able to move with the army and with 1 movement speed they are just a liability for a civ that is supposedly relying on them.

  • [Holding Relics] Prelates that carry a relic can now also mass inspire when using the relic conversion (wololo). All units in the area are inspired for 1 minute (30 seconds for villagers). The conversion has a 45 second cooldown. It would be a high risk/high reward mechanic for the HRE to use relic in the field.

  • [New Landsknecht] Landsknecht survivability should be in line with their cost and offensive abilities. Right now it is not. Landsknechte are trash. The risk is much higher than the reward. Their survivability should be worse than MAA, but better than Spearmen. Thus give them +40 hp (from 80 to 120. 150 on elite), increase their base armor by 1/1 and reduce their base damage by 1. In addition to that increase their base movement speed by 5%. They should be slightly faster than the spearman. After all they are an elite infantry unit. Their current state is disgraceful to say the least. They need improvements, they need to live longer. That way they are not countered by everything, but by their actual counters.

  • [New Culverins] Improve the culverin for all civs that have them. Just make it better. Or make everything else worse. The culverin is a joke unit right now. And also take a very close look at clockwork rapid fire long range chinese bombards. Clockwork is hands down op, you can’t win vs chinese when they have 950 hp bombards that kill everything. The Baochuan also needs to be looked at. There are too many techs that make this ship too strong. Grenadiers also need tuning. It looks terrible when they attack, you cannot comprehend what’s happening. But everything dies around them. Chinese late game is a whole different story, tho. This all is just a side note.

  • [Bugfix] I don’t know if it only happens when Inspired Warriors is researched, but prelates try to inspire towers to no avail and get caught in a loop. Same thing with mangonels, which do not get inspired, but the prelate keeps trying to and also gets caught in a loop. Also decide if HRE siege units can be inspired or not. Right now it only works for some units and I can’t say what is intended. It’s very weird in that regard.

  • [Bugfix] Add the missing coat of arms to HRE MAA and knights (and Ritterbrüder <3)

With these changes, the HRE would feel much more versatile and it would gain various options. Also mechanics and techs that are not being used due to being bad or useless would suddenly be a viable decision.

Summary

I mainly want to change things that are underused, not in a good spot or simply annoying and wonky.

I want the economy not to be reliant on one landmark, but to offer a choice between booming and being aggressive. That’s what my Regnitz and Burgrave ideas are for. Meinwerk is supposed to play into the Burgrave, but would also be viable for a Regnitz approach. Esp. when there is no great spot for the Aachen. Swabia then would be the choice if you are behind economically or simply want to boom more, whereas Elzbach is the defensive option that really pays off if you want to turtle yourself in. It would work well with Regnitz as your are able to protect your viallgers better.

The prelate and inspiration buffs and changes are aiming towards the idea of using prelates in your army. Inspired warriors is never used, because it is terrible. That’s why I want to improve it by eventually increasing inspiration range in imp, improving prelate movement speed to match maa and increase the duration for military units while offering an autocast. That way it would be very much worthwhile to have prelates with your army as opposed to now where they are just a hinderance and not effective. I also want the HRE to have a military bonus from carrying relics with the army. The HRE needs a stronger personality altogether in playstyle and composition since almost all their units are just standard without a working inspired warriors tech.

The idea of the Landsknecht is fine, although I would have wished for a different design. However, to have him work like intended, he needs to be sturdier. For a trade off in damage, if necessary. He is simply too weak. When I win a battle I want to have Landsknechte still standing. They usually all die. Always. Because there is no counter needed for them as they die to literally everything.

This is the summary of most of my changes. The rest is the Ritterbruder idea, which is a dream of mine, and bug fixes as well as qol improvements.

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