I understand if people want to complain about the power level of their unique things, I am just confused why the HRE is supposed to get more techs bonuses or units than other civs. It seems like an odd thing to argue for in an RTS.
The Chinese have issues, but it’s more of the early game sort. Their late game is very strong and 800 something hp 12 range quick shot bombards are definitely op. You need to be Rus or Mongol to counter that, the other civs stand no chance. And then have fun with Springalds needing to hit around 8 times to kill a chinese clockwork bombard. Also mass grenadiers will become an issue sometime in the future, when Chinese are actually able to get to their lategame more reliably.
Because they have less than most other civs and most of their stuff is pretty damn underwhelming or straight up terrible.
If I suggest got get a book about HRE. Since the game is based on “historical accuracy” the best thing that could happen to HRE is that this civ should offer diverse set of techs at least more than the current HRE do. HRE is basically a confederate of micro nations. Just look at the French and England even if both are simple to play, they’re so fun to play and has that “impact”. When playing HRE I don’t know if I can describe it as fun nor impactful. Even though Delhi has stale early gameplay at least they have elephants.
One suggestion of truly “unique” religious upgrade is give the prelates the upgrade to heal siege units or buildings. That’s an upgrade that are both “religious” and “defensive”.
It’s fine to argue to buff or change/replace uniques, but the amount they have is the same as the other civs. Giving one civ extra unique units or extra techs or bonuses is an odd way to balance the game.
Edit: Just by the way for balance for every new thing we argue to add, something existing would have to be nerfed which I feel would make the civ even more bland. As is they are mostly the top infantry civ with some religious and defensive buffs.
They got 2 underwhelming (for military purposes) unique units. The Landsknecht is one of the very few unique units that does not have a single unique upgrade (I think only China can be named here who have unique units without special techs for them, but even there you can go beyond the base line set of techs simply due to Yuan or Ming dynasty). Other units got several and might even have some abilities to use. The archers and knights are as basic as it can get. Look at Rus monastery and armory or the Mongols, they all have way more unique stuff. There is only the English that have one unique unit and they are also pretty boring. The Mongols have 2 unique units like the HRE, but so many unique mechanics and possibilities, you cannot even compare them. And ever roamed the map with a 35 dmg 500 hp 7 range Khan? All civs are fun, but the HRE is not.
I’d suggest you go play them and knock yourself out. If you say after 10 or 20 matches that this Civ is in a good spot and only needs minor tweaks, then that is you and that would be okay, I guess. But I am pretty damn sure that you will soon feel underwhelmed yourself by this Civ. It just has the worst design. The Dehli needs some smaller tweaks to become viable, their mechanics need fine tuning, but the HRE needs rather big ones. And more in the sense of making this civ actually feel good.
Edit: The relgious and defensive buffs are only there by name. They are very underwhelming when in action. Inspiration for army is in a terrible spot and their defense advantages are generic, lackluster and of only minor effect.
I think it’s fine if we argued what uniques to change or that things are boring or in a bad spot. I think it would be fine if they added more unique stuff in replacement of some some of the inspiring or defensive buffs. I highly doubt there will be any changes to the civ made apart from number changes, and arguing for such is not productive outside of hoping someone comes up with a fun mod.
After playing 10-20 games with HRE I think HRE is mostly fine and it’s definitely not that bad as you make them seem to be(apart from bugs that is). Landsknechts should be buffed for sure and maybe they could have one more unit with special tech to give them more variety that being said I don’t think they should have unique knight since so many civs already have knight related bonuses. Maybe spearmen tech could affect light cav and landsknechts as well or something like that?
I don’t think HRE are in a terrible spot, because the prelate mechanic is very powerful (when it isn’t bugging out for unclear reasons).
But I tend to agree HRE is “AoE 4, the Civ (with Prelates)”. It feels like they are missing some sort of mechanic compared with every other civ. I think China and Delhi are weaker because the numbers don’t stack up (so you end up behind at the critical 8-12 minute mark) - but they feel unique and numbers can always be tweaked.
If Landsknecht were hands down the best infantry that would be something. It would perhaps be a bit lame if HRE should never make spears/MAA after the Castle Era (in part due to the upgrades on those units) - but it would… be something. Personally I think Landsknecht should have been the Castle-era upgrade for HRE MAA, but that ship has probably sailed.
I always said that they are economically not in a bad spot, although reliant on relics for mid and much more so for lategame. My main complaint is their lack in civ identity, working mechanics and synergies as well as historical accordance. And that means plate for heavy cav and inf, while the Landsknecht is more of a Renaissance soldier (maybe he should be in age IV? In a much stronger and fitting version ofc) that sacrifices armor for speed and agility to especially excel against cavalry and infantry, Religion and later on also gunpowder).
I think for now the ship has definitely sailed that we see northern Italian, Bohemian or Habsburgian (other than the Landsknecht, who was not Habsburgian but mostly hired by them) units and techs for the HRE, which is a chance missed.
But they could give them some stuff that goes in the direction the HRE is actually coming from. So higher armor knights would be a niche that could be filled, more love to the Landsknecht, an actual useful inspiration mechanic for military. Inspiration is not only useless, but also bugged af. Prelates still sometimes lose their ability to inspire (less frequent than in beta, but still). They can’t inspire mangonels. Almost everything else works, but not mangonels. They try and keep trying, but to no avail. Prelates also try to inspire towers with the same result. And when they try to inspire allied units/workers guess what? Exactly. They inspire as if their life depended on it but it is for nothing. And they do not inspire infight, because they mostly heal. Inspiration for military needs the most rework. It should not be either inspire or heal because that’s what messes the whole thing up. It should be more similar to an aura (increasing with the numbers of prelates, each prelate giving 0,5 tiles for example), aoe cast that can be manually used, an auto aoe cast limited to 5 units per cast, a much longer duration so inspiring units one by one is not so completely useless… There are many possibilities to make it useful.
To sum it up:
- fix all the bugs and finally give them a coat of arms on their shields
- fix inspiration for military
- give some Teutonic Order plate tech to heavy cav, I dare not to dream of a Ritterbruder, and put it in the Monastery
- fix the Landsknecht
- make the age IV armor tech for spearmen more appealing. +3 and for only them is a bit meh.
- change or replace Benediction with something interesting and useful. Maybe for the knight tech?
- spice up the defensive techs, so they may be something you might want to get and not just because you can
And that’s it. These changes are mostly fixes with the additon of a tech that makes something other than infantry a tad bit appealing as all the other civs have something like that (except the English, they are also rather one dimensional).
I am actually in the process of making my own faction suggestion using their civ template for the Teutonic State.(will post it later today) A cool upgrade I am adding is Krasten Brust armor. It gives +2 melee and ranged armor for all infinity from the barracks.
You can link your thread into this one then, if you like. I will definitely want to look at your suggestions. And I hope Relic does so, too.
Yeah of corse! I just need to finish the masteries section when I go home from work. I will post one of the unique traits in this forum as a little taste:
Expand into hostile and uncharted land, leaving behind a vast network of defenses. Castle Towns are the primary center for the teutonic civilization.
So, I’ve been playing mostly HRE after the Rus and I have to say, they are very strong but one dimensional. Of course, Landsknecht have to be buffed. My suggestions would actually be for their Imperial gameplay. While unlikely outside of number changes, I’d love to see either mortars or reiters.
Reiters are armored cavalry with pistols, available only in Imperial. They barely fit in the timeline at 1550s. They’ll be able to move and shoot, however would have very short range like 3.5 tiles. Probably be expensive at 50f, 200g or something.
Mortars are a more likely fit to the timeline. They’ll cost as much as any high end siege unit at 200w, 600g and they’ll basically act like a gunpowder mangonel. They’ll have to setup/teardown, fire a non tracking AoE projectile from long range. Would have more range than mango and more damage, but less AoE.
Stronger gunpowder mangonels? Sign me right up! Personally they should do the total war route, and let the HRE mangonel launch explosion gunpowder barrels.
+1 on HRE changes, i think LK should be changed completely. For me the inspiration system is fine, i like it. On the other hand i feel HRE infantry power is not that good and they are too weak in late game.
The best would be to see a post in this thread from a dev or any kind of community manager that they recognized the issue.
Can you @Dodzylla tell me what you like about inspiration for military? Ignoring the bugs that Prelates can’t inspire mangonels and tend to bug around when around allied units or towers or simply altogether when they stop inspiring for good (happens rather rarely, but happens).
How is a 3 sec single target cast with 30 sec duration that cannot be applied while infight of any use or in a good spot? Especially when healing is also something they are supposed to do with a single target cast? How does it help in big battles? It could be of a slight use for smaller hit squads, but you do not have prelates with hitsquads due to their slow speed. And inspiration only for siege and a few ranged units feels very meh. When a prelate has inspired the tenth unit, the first unit loses their inspiration already. And then every 3 secs the buff runs out on another unit. How is that a useful mechanic? I am asking because I can’t fathom it. How is this ever useful in a match? How does it help lategame as it barely is of any use before thanks to the effort you need to put into it goldwise? You need to carefully prepare your units with a lot of prelates before you charge, but it better be a close distance to cover. The effort you need to put into it is never worth it. Never ever. Vs ai maybe, but in a 1v1? It’s a drop of water on a hot stone. A little whizz and it’s gone. The Warrior Monk hits once and all Rus units in a rather big radius around him are inspired (+3 attack, +1/1 armor) if the trinity landmark was chosen, which is a very good choice. Even if you miss out on the improved hunting cabin. How is it fair that the Rus have to hit once, inspire all for 20 seconds and can do it infight, while the Prelates have trouble to keep at least 5 units inspired or simply do not inspire at all while in a battle? How is it fair that one camel is enough to give all Abbasid AND allied infantry +1/1 armor? Where do you rank inspiration when compared to the other rather polished mechanics? It’s so very inferior. The Religion part of the HRE for military is in the most useless spot you can imagine.
But I second you on everything else. Their lategame is poor due to the lack of good techs and units as well as mechanics and synergies.
I also hope Relic recognizes all this and puts some work into the HRE. They are barely played not because they are terribly bad (they are mid tier at best as they have a good early to mid game and are a one trick pony, late game is terrible and offers nothing), but buggy, boring and one dimensional. It’s such a shame that Relic screwed their civ identity and don’t seem to have really tried it. It’s time to remedy that. At least to show them some love. And a freaking coat of arms. It’s unbearable that it’s missing.
The HRE was such an interesting nation in history. It rules for centuries and was (at the time) the pinnacle of European powers. They were incredibly culturally diverse and had swathes of land. Yet, all they really have going for them is the mediocre Landsknechts and (rather interesting) prelates. Their gameplay barely differs and they’re way to basic.
There’s a lot of missed opportunities, and I think the civ deserves a rework. I doubt it’ll happen though.
Just sad that HRE doesnt really have any bonus for their knigths, with the french they were the big knight nations in europe. The current theme with the landsknecht goes only towards 16th century, kinda leaving out most of the middle ages. At least they have well armored infantry and special castles, but nothing for knights is a bit disappointing.
Well, you are right, mb inspire should be an aoe spell I know other civs are better, but i still like it.
Here it is! I am quite proud of it, even if it might be a balance nightmare lmao: Faction Idea: Teutonic State