I think Europeans do need to be very mindful of their history. Especially Germans as I am one myself. The Nazis ruined for example the Nibelungenlied and defiled so much of historical substance just to display themselves as successors of certain things (just think about how they treat Norse mythology and try to collect their indentity for themselves) that it actually can become quite tough to talk enthusiatically about Norse mythology or Siegfried and the Nibelungen without being labeled as at least âdubiousâ. I studied German literature so I do know how to treat all that. At least to some extent, I am sure. But many people lack the ability to have an academic view on these kinds of things. And that is totally okay in my book. Not everybody is interested in these things, not everybody needs to deep dive into this to be allowed an opinion. My point just is: If you want to make a game that includes the European Medieval Ages, please be thorough and scientific about it and not just throw together some shit that doesnât make sense and as a result actually completely ruins certain Civs that are supposed to display a historical role and according facts. This should be more about history than Hollywood attitudes and false ideas. I completely understand Relics approach to have a basic structure that applies to all civs. But then you need to really build upon that. And you need to find a balance with that. You canât give some civs so many mechanics, clear uniqueness, historical inadequacies and power while other Civs that actually excel at certain parts, appear to be unwanted stepsons and do not deserve the name they stand for as they simply lack the identity.
And I think all that was a Relic decision. Sure, some people or cultures are more proud of where they come from and are stupidly patriotic (Patriotism is nothing other than telling myths about your nation and culture that lead to more myths and thus completely transfigure historical facts to an extent that you could close with âpatriotism leads to fictionâ) that it can become very difficult to talk or have a discussion with these people. Others, however, have to live with a history that somewhat makes it impossible to be proud of where you come from without negative repercussions. I think it always is a tad bit stupid to be proud of where one comes from, because it is not your deed. You were just lucky (or unlucky), depending on where you were born. But it is nothing one personally can be proud of. Thatâs just my opinion on that. But to continue, yeah, there are certain people who go too far and others who might be very anxious when certain topics arise. Bottom line, however, is that you can talk about everything you want, you just need to know your stuff. Nobody gets anything out of historical facts that degenerate into myths that then lead into entertainment (games, movies), which will eventually suffer from these degenerations. This is why I am so adamant about certain Civ differencies and why some things like the HRE having one of the worst Cavs in the game are an absolute no go and can potentially ruin the whole game for me.
I donât wanna accept it. If everybody just accepted everything, because it could be the way it is intended and would never be subject to change, we would have a very boring and lackluster world. Just as boring and lackluster as the HRE is in this current state of the game.
Smash not in the sense of destroy or cut through, but in the sense of damaging the body under that armor. A longsword doesnât need to cut through in order to do damage. Longswords have quite an impact force and can break bones. The Samurais would be protected from cuts (less so from stabs), but not from broken bones. Plate armor offers a way better protection and the Katana makes it difficult to parry a Longsword strike due to the difference in weight and power.
You should be proud of you ancestors for sure. You are their continuation. A lot of they did and suffer they did for their kids and future generations.
What is this all aboutâŠEuropean civs are typically blend and similar in design because the entire game is designed based on Europeans. The unit composition, the weaponry, and the tactics they use, are all in essence medieval European. Almost every aspect of the basic game design counts as the uniqueness of the European civs.
Because of this you only need a few minor tweaks for another European civ, but need a lot of new units and aesthetics for whatever non-European. Thatâs so natural and obvious.
I wonder how this would lead to the whole weeb or self-hatred or neo-nazism discussionâŠespecially from someone who would accuse you for using the taboo word âEurocentricâ as ad hominem or politicizing game designs.
EDIT: or more accurately, western European.
EDIT: Disclaimer: Iâm actually actively pushing towards diversifying European civs more in AOE3 so itâs not that I do not want more diverse European civs.
Donât you think European civs could be just as unique and asymmetric as civs from around the world? I think they could be but for some reason donât receive the same respect.
I can be happy, I can be glad, I can feel good about it, but pride? I find it always difficult to be proud of something that wasnât your doing. That you had no part in. Be proud of your family and feel good about your nation or origion. Thatâs at least my approach. Eventually we are all way more alike than different. And it all depends on what we do and not what has been done before us.
While I agree with what youâve said about patriotism on an academic level, I also notice in between the lines that indeed mister H. is still the most important person in the German psyche, like an oppressive force of shame and guilt.
I think that what Kostej says on this is reasonable and universal.
You should be proud of you ancestors for sure. You are their continuation. A lot of they did and suffer they did for their kids and future generations.
I can agree on that. I donât what this thread to derail into a âwhat is patriotism and should you be patrioticâ discussion. But yeah, Mr. H is still very present. And he has gotten more present again in the last years than he was 20 years ago. Relic, however, is probably not impaired by him. Their reasons are probably different ones.
What I am wondering is whether relic is willing to change HRE after the game has already been released.
I suspect that creating new civs is more important than adapting and widening existing ones. It is truly a shame, because the current version of HRE is truly underwhelming and feels incomplete.
When playing the HRE during the technical stress test I had the idea that I somehow didnât figure out where all the unique units were, but later I realized that there werenât that much.
They sure act like as if after release the whole balancing is about to be adressed in a deep and thorough way. But I do not know if adding units or fundamentally changing them would be a part of that. It is doubtful but one can hope that it is. It would be a real shame if the HRE and the English were left in their respective sorry states and if the game were to actually really screw up heavy cavalry strengths and usages throughout the civilizations altogether. Knights and the impact of them is European and in the widest sense Byzantine/Persian/Scythian with adaptions by adjacent kingdoms, countries and empires. And that is grossly simplified. The medieval heavy knight on horse is the most European it can get. France, the HRE, England and some southern and eastern European kingdoms and duchies were the peaking point of the heavily armored knight on horseback. The game needs to display that. AoE 2 is a good example for this and which civs have Paladins and boni. The Brits just got screwed over due to balance reasons. But the Celts have a lul version at least. So there is that. At least somewhat.
I also think it wouldnât be difficult to diversify HRE a little bit.
Just give them another Man At Arms unit with a different name, change the skin of the unit, increase attack and armor stats, but decrease movement speed.
Then do the same with the Knight. Another skin, a bit more armor and attack, but less movement speed.
Then give these units an interesting name that conveys a little savviness in history (such as Ritterbruder), put a Christian cross on their outfit and youâre basically done.
It is not as if diversifying HRE after release would really be that demanding.
How many working hours would it take them to do this? I canât imagine it would be a lot.
I still have some hopes that all we have seen from the HRE was not yet final and has changed since. I mean⊠They must have noticed that barely anything works. The HRE âuniqueâ inspiration mechanic is by far inferior to Rus and faulty (and not so unique obviously), the Prelate is a liability in the army for being weak, expensive, slow and a melee range one target caster that doesnât know if heâs supposed to heal or to inspire. Landsknechte are useless or rather a waste of ressources, the maa upgrades are buggy and weird, the synergies and sepcialities in other departments are lacking⊠The impossible fact that the HRE is bringing the worst cav to the game⊠They must have noticed that. They say they play the game every day for hours. They must have noticed the stuff I listed up themselves. Its inferiority, bugginess, uselessness, complete absence of uniqueness⊠They must have. No way they havenât. No way.
Presently Iâve seen no indication from them that they plan to add units or buildings to civs, though we know they will fix bugs and balance existing stuff.
So true about HRE, being prety much empty civilisation in game.
For the Landsknechts, the problem reside in the unit attack range, just like the pikemen.
Landsknechts and the pikemen should have extra attack range, since they use long weapons.
They should be able to give the first deadly blow when they engage enemy and do area dps.
Maybe allow spearmen to do area dps in a line and the Landsknechts a wide dps area attack around them.
Maybe let Landsknechts have more space between them, to avoid friendly damage, if they hever had it. XD
Also, the spearmen do no dps at close range, that is wy swordmen kill him easy in a solo figth. (The spearmen would drop the spear and figth whit a dager in close combat, just like the archer)
I want a poleaxe unique infantry unit for the holy romans that gains bonus damage vs armored and cavalry but weak vs archers. Some of the last remaining information on poleaxe historic European martial arts was made by a German. That weapon was the great equalizer since it could kill knights and cavalry alike. It was very prevalent throughout 15th century europe. Itâs a shame its not even in the game .
Apparently nothing has changed since the beta. I couldât test much as I can only watch streamers, but it looks like nothing was changed at all. I wouldnât be surprised if the inspiration mechanic was still bugged and turns off after a while. Itâs also probably still terrible for military purposes and is greatly outperformed by the Warrior Monk. The Landsknecht still seems useless as nobody is building him. And the mace upgrade might still be useless as well. Itâs hard to tell when you can only watch matches. Yeah, well⊠it looks like itâs all the same like it was during beta and I can only hope that I am wrong and that my observations are incomplete.
The strong ealry HRE eco letâs them be succesful and make them seem like a strong civ. It can actually not take long until everybody realises how lackluster and basic they are. They maybe are a strong civ as of now, but they are not unique or special or interesting and do not deserve to be called HRE. From what Iâve seen from streamers today, I am very disappointed as it does not look like anything has been done from beta to now game balance wise. The HRE even is still lacking coat of arms. Their shields are â â â â â â â blank⊠There is nothing on it⊠What the hell, Relic?
