HRE - Uniqueness, mechanic and army rant. There is a lot of potential lying fallow

The way inspiration works right now for military, if it works, is not a good mechanic. In reality you barely have the inspiration buff. It’s a 3 sec single target cast and not like the camel aura instantly giving a bonus for every infantry unit in the area. 30 seconds are way too low for the fact that it is a single target cast. This renders it almost completely useless. Units do not get inspired infight, the Prelates heal then. And they are supposed to heal, because healing is actually strong in AoE 4. You do not want them to 3 sec cast a buff and not heal in the meantime. Then again you also don’t want them to inspire only when all units are healed up. The mechanic just is useless except for siege and maybe ranged units. But even then it doesn’t feel convincing and not at all polished. It needs to changed for military purposes so it is not a single target cast anymore. The best thing would be an aura that increases with the amount of prelates that are somewhat close to each other. Let’s say 1 prelate inspires units within 0,5-1 tiles. And 10 prelates inspire units in a radius of 5 tiles. And so on. That way you want prelates with your army, you want to protect them, because they are slow, weak, expensive, but give a nice bonus when kept alive. And the opponent can try to snipe them for max profit. That would be a high risk/high reward mechanic that made inspiration useful with the right gold investment. I think this or something similar to this needs to be done, if this ability is ever to be useful. Right now it is utter trash and can only be used vs ai, because the ai is stupid.

Care to read a bit? Yes? There you go:

Summary

It says for the HRE: Religion, Infantry and Defense. That’s what their core is supposed to be. It’s the only civ that says “Religion”. Yet the warrior monk is way better to use and offers way more synergies. Yes, he only becomes really strong with his Landmark. And yes, you would have to miss out on better gold and bounty generation. But why not? The warrior monk is very strong and the Landmark allows you to gather Relics quickly and maybe even cripple the HRE, who heavily rely on relics in general, but especially in longer games. The warrior monk needs to strike once and somewhat all units get a very similar effect to the HRE inspiration. But it applies to most units after just one single hit and lasts 20 seconds fully upgraded I think. The way to play here is to hit and run with the monks during a battle, so they don’t die at the front line (I mean, they end up wth 290 hp, I think. It’s fairly easy to keep them alive) and thus can keep the buff up almost endlessly. It requires a little bit of micro, but it is not difficult. And when you pull them back, they heal each other up to full, before they need to return to the battle. Again: One strike suffices. And then look at the FU knights the Rus have with warrior monks: 344 hp, 39 or 40 damage (not sure) and 9/9 armor. That’s sick. Especially when your own civ only has infantry with some perks, while the rest of the units is baseline boring. That’s why the HRE also needs a cav tech. They deserve it, they used heavy cav very heavily (no pun intended), perfected knighthood like the French and were the greatest plate manufacturer of their time. And they most definitely did not get outperformed by eastern European knights. But instead they get a Landsknecht that dies if you look at him, because he was completely screwed over given his historical role.

And yes, the eco Prelate is strong. But it is the eco advantage for the HRE. Other civs have other stuff. The HRE eco has peaks and needs to be taken care of, but it is not exceptionally stronger than other civs’s ecos. The French are very easy to play and got an eco that barely needs any kind of micro, skill or planning. Then they get the ridiculous guild hall, which is just insane. The English also have no eco issues, neither do the Rus if they can find enough hunt for at least 350 bounty. And the Abbasids become stronger and stronger eco wise with every minute the game progresses. I do not see the great HRE eco advantage that would justify all the HRE shortcomings. And even if there were such an eco advantage, it would probably get nerfed in the longrun leaving the HRE pretty blank with bugs (that hopefully will be fixed by then, too), a boring tech tree that offers nothing but inf and useless mechanics/no synergies.

If you look at the Abbasids and the HRE and only talk about melee infantry or better: MAA, then the HRE is better. Esp. in castle age. But the Abbasids get their camels as well that are always with the infantry. And camel archers are a pain to counter with the HRE inf. The 10% speed is nice, but they still can’t catch up with cav and since it is only 10% and not 15%, it takes them very long to actually catch up when they can. They will eventually, but not in the sense Zerglings do in Starcraft II. It is nice, but it’s not like they catch everything thanks to it. So, against the Abbasid camels you have to go for a lot of archers. And in that regard the Abbasids have their advantages again due to a faster rate of fire that applies to camel archers, archers and crossbows. You can’t deny that the Abbasids have a pretty darn strong infantry considering the fact that they are not an infantry civ. The HRE, however, is but offers nothing aside from it. That’s the big issue and the imbalance in regards of the civ designs.

My point is that the core strengths of the HRE are Religion and inf, while they do not offer anything else. And then they do not even excel at Religion, because the Rus offer better mechanics/synergies. And the HRE also does not excel at infantry, because other civs also have good infantry and unique units that are actually useful. If there was a castle age match with only MAA vs MAA, sure the HRE would probably win vs every civ. But that’s not the reality of the game. You need synergies and comps that compliment one another and that is where the HRE falls so incredibly short. The early MAA are not even remotely as strong as the early knights, so early MAA is much easier to counter. And once you know how to do that, the HRE does not really pose such a great threat anymore (the English also have early MAA to counter, the French and Rus have knights, leaving only 50% of the civs against which the HRE “strength” can actually be used).
Their military altogether just is inferior to actually every other civ. The reasons for that I have listed up plenty of times. The HRE has the least stuff going for them and they are being played less and less. Most people start to get annoyed by the HRE as far as I can tell, because they realize how limited this civ is.

If I wasn’t a HRE enthusiast, I would probably play the French because I like shiny plate and knights. Or the Rus, because they are played in a way that I actually like and prefer over most other civs. And their knights even rival the French ones. But I preordered the game when Relic announced the HRE to be one of the 8 civs. That made me preorder. And then I am presented with this sorry excuse of a civ desgin that is just lackluster, boring and funnily enough “uninspired”. That’s why I cannot be satisfied with what the HRE offers and how they were designed. They will receive buffs along the line, that’s guaranteed I’d say, if Relic cares for their game. It’s just the question of when and how they will be buffed. I just hope it’s not only little changes that are equally uninspired as the design of the civ up until now.

2 Likes

It’s really sad to see how trash/underdeveloped HRE turned out to be. Almost everything about this civ is bugged/barely functional, or even has a placeholder feel to it.

  1. Fix prelates autobuffing.
  2. Make prelates do area of effect (targetable, like grenades in CoH, Relic) buffs with longer cooldown. Aiming a buff at specific villager is extremely hard with how small the unit colliders are, and buffing single soldiers for few seconds is a MASSIVE waste of time.
  3. Make weapon upgrades for units more meaningful, allow us to switch between two-handed high damage and anti-armor.
  4. Give Landsknecht activable charge skill (with 30 sec cooldown or maybe higher) that also increases their armor for a short amount of time.
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unique techs bugged and worthless, and wtf is that Landsknecht with 100 gold price tag? who in their right mind thought Landsknechts worth 100 gold? thats knight line price tag.

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Landsknecht reminds me of those red Sith Troopers in the cringe star wars sequels. Very good looking with a cool name but worthless units.

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Also, add a new unique unit, Landsknecht with pikes

I hope that since age IV has many active players right now, relic can stop playing safe ( as many reviews already pointed out) and start giving more variation to game, instead of worthless DLC, keep the expansion pack like golden era RTS, adding new civ, more units to current ones and better campaign ( change narrator pls )

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its similar to the eagle warriors (which are high speed infantry) in aoe2, it just needs some tweaking but the price is 100% justifiable if they can get it right… as it stands the eagles in aoe2 are 60 gold while knights are 75 gold, but they usually end up more cost effective/appealing, due to their different counters and advantages…

i agreed the prelates need work and are bugging out, but even without those buffs, their infantry are vastly better than anyone else’s before age 4. and the prelate buff still works fine on ranged units (where it can more easily be applied as you can remove them from combat)

so which one is it? they are or they arent an infantry civ? you want them to be an infantry civ, with the best infantry, but you always want them to have better archers, and better cavalry?

just because the monks synergise better with the OP rus cav, doesnt mean they have remotely the same amount of religious bonuses as HRE have… just the fact that you can pump monks before age 3, means you can either insta collect relics on age 3, or insta capture sites, both returning more gold, and even more with the land mark (yes the land mark works, its just a UI error)

and finally you are straight out ignoring the buffs on defensive buildings from relics… towers and castles do more damage, more armour and more range, which are all very big bonuses.

but you guys are all acting like HRE is hot garbage with no identity…

just because Rus and Franks need a lot of nerfs, doesnt mean HRE is remotely garbage… you are comparing an OP civ to an arguably balanced or arguably very strong civ when the bugs are fixed…

No. I want them to bring more to the table than just inf. All the other civs have their strengths in various areas while still maintaining a core strength. Rus got knigts, horse archers, Streltsies, Warrior Monks. You get the idea, I do not want to list up all the other civs. But they all got something going that improves different unit types other than their core strength. Just infantry while everything else is baseline, is lackluster and not in line with other civs. I want the HRE to resemble the HRE. That means plate, gunpowder, Religion, infantry, heavy cavalry. Just like the other civs, too. French got something for knights, crossbows, artillery. The HRE falls short. And you can’t win late game matches with only infantry. You need something else or you will never be able to beat late game Rus, French, Mongols, Chinese, Abbasids. The English might work in late game and Dehli is hard to say. Dehli needs something for their early game, so they can actually get to late game.

The HRE got the eco Prelate and a Landmark that makes you profit more off Relics. The eco Prelate is their way of balancing out the other civs bonuses. Late game eco becomes very tedious with them, especially if you do not go for Regnitz. Then they got a tech that improves eco inspiration. And that’s pretty much it. Benediction is complete trash and does not deserve to be named and inspiration for military is rather useless. You maybe able to reliably inspire some artillery and archers, but it will always be a bunch of them and the effect is not noteworthy. You do not win battles because 15% of your army has the inspiration buff. Consider the gold investment up to that point. There are no other religious techs that stand out. The Mongols got nicer techs due to thei ovoo improvements. The Rus have tons of techs in their Landmark for their Monks. And Dehli and Abbasids (conversion on single target without relic can be handy) also have a few religious techs of which speedy scholars and 50% attack speed for 3 sec when being healed stand out. You actually profit from scholars amidst your army because of the attack speed while healing.

Now tell me what is so great about the HRE in comparison. And why are they THE Religion civ, while the others just have their techs as a side note?

That is nice to have, but not too great. You want relics in your Regnitz cathedral and not in defensive structures, especially when the game goes longer. Yeah, so maybe if you find a 4th one. But that is very unlikely. What was your point again? And the 5% attack speed for ships when relics are put in the harbor is also very lackluster and will barely be of any use or notable.

And sure, you can use them for a forward aggression and there it can be an okay bonus. But that is also rather a niche and cannot be considered a straight up good bonus.

Because it is.

1 Like

I agree with so many points on this thread. I’ve actually been trying to main HRE, but it’s hopeless. If I’m against Rus or French (which are most players these days) it’s usually a tough match.

I don’t feel qualified to go into too many specifics, but thought I’d leave my two cents.

2 Likes

Cents, Dollars, everything is appreciated. :slight_smile:

Question, does relic can still be place in castles to give extra armor? I have the game in Spanish and I don’t that, ninja change ?

eagles have bonus attack vs siege and cav, and high pierce armor to protect them vs range, Landsknechts have none of those, they get slaughter by cav siege and range, see the difference?

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i think the following would be nice and fits well with their themes:

  • buff landsknechts
    (not sure how to do this best, maybe just more health? Infantry focus)

  • replace outpost with a stone fort
    (like rus fort but made out of stone. Defence focus)

  • new unique unit teutonic knight
    (mounted knight with the inspire ability of the prelate, and posibly a fear debuff for enemies?most other civs have 3 unique units, why not the HRE! Religious focus)

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After having played the game a bit more, I really strongly feel that HRE is an unfinished civilization that needs some more time and attention from the developers.

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It feels like most people here just want HRE to have more unique units and techs than all the other civs. Clearly they are supposed to be an infantry civ with interesting eco/religious bonuses. Tbh they are probably among the most balanced civs being very mid tier (although landsknechts could definitely use some love). Their landmarks are also unique (tho many civs are) and they are the only civ with the option for cheap age up, very easy to fast imp as HRE. Cheaper defenses and keeps that you can garrison relics in to buff and have unique techs to make stronger are definitely nothing to sneeze at. They are the best infantry civ and have very solid seige (access to culverins) making the a good civ at securing areas of the map.

Edit: It seems a lot of their uniqueness was channeled into prelates and defenses. Arguably they could use some number buffs and better landsknechts.

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@brubie99 I think you do not really know all the techs and how they function. There are no cheaper keeps. They cost 800 just like it is for every other civ as well. The defensive upgrades are a tad bit cheaper, but that is bugged as it only applies to stone and not to gold. Also the unique techs are not that great. 5 more fire protection and stronger walls/towers is okay, but neither interesting nor outstanding. The religious techs are also mostly useless or lead to a useless mechanic. Just read through the thread to see where all the problems lie. This civ is not even mediocre, it is just bad and unfinished. It has some nice touches, but they are unfinished and do not synergize well. And you better put relics in the Regnitz Cathedral (the only HRE way to make extra gold compared to ohter civs. The French got better trade AND this ridiculous and op Guildhall for example. You have to go Regnitz if you can’t be sure to end the game until minute 20). And you have to get relics. You would be actually stupid to put them in a keep instead. Unless you wanna end the game and try to push with a keep that has a relic. Sure, you can do that. But it is far from a good bonus, as it is barely of any use. Pushing and watermaps, that’s what it is good for. Other than that you wanna put relics in the Regnitz.

You obviously have not played the HRE too much and you also do not seem to care for them. You might have tried them and interpreted some boni without actually testing them, but that’s it. No way you wanna main the HRE and are satisfied with them. There is just no way that that’s the case.

Edit: They definitely need some buffs and especially some love from the devs. They are the unwanted stepchild right now.

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They have a civ bonus of 25% cheaper walls outposts and keeps. Maybe it’s bugged and not working correctly?

Edit: Im not sure I’d compare them to the Franks, that civ needs some serious nerfs.
2nd Edit I can’t read, the emplacements are cheaper, nvm then.

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I’m actually planning to play HRE as my next civ (I mostly play French and Abbasids). I just have been prepping myself for how to play early game with prelates. Most of my experience is watching Viper play them and they are more of a straightforward civ, middle tier complexity (more than France/England).

-25% cost applies only to weapon addons on keeps and towers. Quite pitifull bonus.

2 Likes

Their technology that boosts health of walls, keeps and towers is also worse than the chinese great wall landmark… so even as the “defensive” civilization their walls are worse than the chinese… despite it being one of their “boons”…

I think they should get a natural 50% increased health on walls, tower, gates and keeps. by default… and make a technology in every age to future improve it.

3 Likes

Defensive is also one of China’s boons to be fair. And as is, HRE is a stronger civ than China right now who is bottom 2 with Delhi.

At current game balance civs should probably hover around HRE/English power level imo (although I think English is a little better than HRE and a better balance point).

China and definitely Delhi need some love while French Mongols Rus and maybe Abbasids need some nerfs.

Edit: Imo a few of the unique HRE things need some buffs because they are really kind of meh, but the amount of uniqueness is only really less than like China/Mongols

1 Like