That does sound like it is a bug. But it would make this bonus kinda nice for water teamgames. Maybe it’s a bug that could be a feature?
Thank you very much. 
And while I agree with everything you say, I must add that another problem or rather the core problem of the HRE is that it just is very one dimensional and historically inaccurate at that. They do need something that makes them appealing in regards of anything else but infantry. Most fittingly would be cavalry. I wish it was like this: Have a unique castle age unit that either replaces the knight or just is a unique upgrade for the knight making him a Ritterbruder or Knight of the Order, because the Teutonic Order needs to be resembled in this game and I probably won’t be able to accept anything else. -_- The focus here should lie in armor and longevity. That alone would make the archers of the HRE better without actually improving them as they would have a better front row. Infantry is the worst army segment (still useful ofc, but weaker than range and cav), especially in late game and gets countered by siege, range and to some extent also knights. The HRE needs something else to be viable and that can only be cavalry for castle age. And then move the Landsknecht to age IV and improve him accordingly as an anti cav, anti inf, unarmored, fast and yet somewhat sturdy (thanks to hp probably) elite infantry unit that is worth its 100 gold and also has a place in age IV meaning it won’t get easily hardcountered by archers as well.
I know, I know, another unique knight unit? That would be too much, right? Well… In my opinion it should not be the HRE’s problem if there are a lot of other knight focussed civs, as they are next to the French the heavy knight civ of Europe, especially if you include the Teutonic Order, which is a must if you want to have medieval Germany in the game. There’s no way around it. The unit or upgrade should only be available in age III, tho, because the civ’s focus should be plate. That means MAA and knights. That should be the focus together with Religion while having a baseline set of archers and crossbows. The Landsknecht would then be the change of paradigm in fighting heavily armored units and he would thus find its place in the lategame probably as an eloborate anti cav infantry. This would give this civ an identity that would be somewhat in line with its historical background. We cannot expect a complete overhaul at this point, I am afraid. So doing it like this would give the HRE a place in the game and everybody would know what they are about:
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fix prelate military use/fix inpsiration
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fix civ clunkiness in regards of mechanics (eco and military)
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add a unique knight upgrade that focusses on armor in age III (+2 armor, +10 hp, expensive and in monastery) → civ focus here: Plate meaning MAA and knights with prelates and baseline archer/siege support
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Religion needs to stand out more. Rus (military) and Delhi (in general) feel better in that regard. HRE needs some perks here (looking at your suggestions @SungBugle881527 :))
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move Landsknecht to age IV, make him anti cav, anti inf (in the sense of not weak against inf but viable), unarmored, fast and yet somewhat sturdy
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add a Hand Cannoneer upgrade making them Landsknechts with arquebuses. Give them a bit more dmg or 10 more hp or make them a bit faster or whatever, just make them useful and kinda special.
This is not too much effort and it would make this civ much more unique. It also wouldn’t copy the french as their castle age focus is knights and crossbows (heavy armor and heavy armor counter, which is actually the best composition for this age). The HRE would be unique at being focussed around heavy plate melee in age III. In age IV, however, you would notice the change of paradigm meaning that the Landsknecht replaces the heavily armored front row soldier as the core of the army by being its counterpart that excels in fighting knights (mostly cav) and later on also uses gunpowder weapons. Together with a working inspiration mechanic you would have a strong melee focussed civ that would grow in power the more gold you put into it: knights, MAA, Landsknechts, hand cannoneers, prelates, siege.
For castle age the only change would be: No Landsknecht, but +2 armor/10 hp knights.
For imperial age the only change would be: A useful Landsknecht that maybe also has a hand cannoneer upgrade.
The rest is bug and mechanics fixing. That’s actually it. And the numbers could always change. If +2 armor would be too much, it could be reduced to +1 armor and +15 hp or +1 dmg, +1 armor, +10 hp or something like that. The goal is that it is strong but not overpowered. It’s more about civ personality than anything.
The HRE would have mediocre trash and baseline archers thus being very gold reliant. The power would literally come with a price, because everything that is good costs a lot of gold.
I could live with that. I mean, I would have done a lot of stuff completely different when designing the civ, but taking the HRE as they are right now, these would be changes that go in the direction I can live with and are actually very possible and easy to realize. The HRE would feel more in line and would have set counters: in age III anti heavy armor and range, in age IV mostly range and siege. You could preemptively build crossbows vs the HRE in castle age knowing that that’s where they have their strengths and the HRE could then go ahead and counter that with baseline horsemen until the investment of gold becomes viable. There would be possibilities and most importantly: Religion, tech and units would synergize while the Landsknecht would be free of his inaccurate role as an auxiliary wimp.
Infantry is not useless in the literal sense. It has its uses, more so in castle age but even in late game and especially the HRE MAA. The thing just is that it’s the only real HRE strength and at that rather weak in age IV. It will always be viable to build infantry in age IV. But the other things are simply better and you get more value out of them. This is why I want to extent the HRE focus to plate in general and thus to knights (because it makes sense and rounds them up) and make the Landsknecht an age IV unit raising the bar for age IV infantry as this civ’s strong suit. The main focus would still be infantry and Religion, but you would also have knights that stand out a bit and act as a durable frontline.
The whole point of this thread is that the HRE is lacking in mechanics, synergies, uniqueness and just does not feel like it was finished. Existing stuff needs to be fixed, but for me they also have to add something to it that is not there yet. Only fixing the existing stuff would not be enough.
I believe my “stupid” quote was referring to the act of building a Landsknecht in its current state. I do not remember correctly as this thread is quite long now, but I most certainly did not insult anyone particular with that.
The other quote can be criticized as in having a different opinion. Up to this point I have repeated myself quite a lot saying that the civ feels boring and empty. My point was not that it is way too weak, but way too boring and not unique enough. Playing the HRE gets frustrating due to both the lack of civ identity and clunky mechanics as well as bugs. Forgive me if I react a little bit irritated when all my points are ignored and I am told that this civ is actually in a good spot by a person who doesn’t really know how all the techs and boni of the civ work, where they apply and where they don’t. I find it thus not okay when you go ahead and act like I was some kind of scientology reject who now tries to build his own sect.
And ofc do I compare the civ to the strong civs. But there is also plenty of comparison to the weaker civs, however, mostly in regards of uniqueness. And nobody here ever said that Chinese and Delhi do not need improvement or do not have problems. They both, however, have a much more interesting late game and are more versatile. The build up and mechanics are just not polished. Especially for the Chinese.
This thread focusses on the HRE, tho. That’s why the other lacking and unfinished civs are not discussed as much.
And even if everything that is off right now is fixed, the problem remains that the HRE’s strengths and techs only help infantry and leave everything else mere baseline, which is mostly a problem for mid and late game. Even after all the fixes the HRE would still not have an identiy but would remain to be a generic infantry civ. I don’t want that. That’s why there is this thread. If you want other stuff and wish to raise your voice, nobody stops you from creating your own thread.
