[Huge patch] My first patch after the launch of the new DLC would look something like this:

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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It’s just my personal opinion, all in good fun, just wanted to share some of my quick nitpicks on the game we love, based on some History, winrates (as seen on ‘aoestats.io’), and my personal style, without much compromise or radical changes. I also didn’t look too much into the African civs yet.
Also, as we know, some civs have a debatable military focus, like the Celts being a Siege civ and the Ethiopians being an Archer and Siege civ.

General Style Changes:

  • the obligatory pathfiding, bug fixes, etc
  • make all civs have the right architectural style
  • create, at least, the Caucasus and Nomadic architectural styles
  • make all civs have a unique castle
  • make all civs have at least one campaign
  • correct some of the civs Monasteries and Monks based on their actual religion
  • correct some of the civs spoken language (eg: Byz. speak Latin instead of Greek; Goths; etc) and ideally its grammar (Portuguese, Burmese, etc)
  • have the option of toggling on/off a bit more blood on dead units
  • make all tooltips and texts more useful/complete/fun (I’m thinking about the old ‘Maximum Extended Help’ and ‘Age of Chivalry’ mods).
  • improve some civ descriptions (eg: Ethiopians: ‘Archer civilization’ → ‘Archer and Siege civilization’)
  • make in-game buildings also show their Building Armour or at least have a clear option
  • rename ‘Gate’ to ‘Stone Gate’
  • improve the Ballistics tech icon
  • make Careening and Dry Dock have more distinct tech icons
  • rename the ‘War Galley’ tech to ‘War Ships’ (so it’s not confusing by having a name similar to the ship unit while affecting 3 different ships)

General Balance Changes:

  • (Elite) Elephant Archer: range 4 → 5 (same range as the Archers and Skirmishers; they shoot from a higher elevation, why would they have less range? also, they’re not very strong right now for their cost and counters); movespeed 0.9 → 0.88 (same as new Battle Elephants
  • Conscription cost: 150 Food, 150 Gold → 250 Food, 250 Gold
  • Two-Man Saw cost: 300 Food, 200 Wood → 250 Food, 200 Wood (it makes sense if you see the cost math evolution)
  • Faith cost: 750 Food, 1000 Gold → 750 Food, 750 Gold
  • Illumination cost: 120 Gold, 65 seconds → 200 Gold, 45 seconds
  • Redemption cost: 475 Gold → 500 Gold
  • Masonry cost: 150 Food 175 Wood → 150 Food 200 Wood
  • push Treadmill Crane to Imp Age; change effect ‘Villagers construct buildings 20% faster’ → ‘Villagers construct buildings 20% faster, repair 10% faster’; cost ‘300 Food, 200 Wood, 50 seconds’ → ‘250 Food, 250 Wood, 60 seconds’; make available to all civs; somehow balance it for DeathMatch
  • Man-at-Arms upgrade cost: 100 Food, 40 Gold, 40 seconds → 75 Food, 40 Gold, 30 seconds
  • Long Swordsman upgrade cost: 150 Food, 65 Gold, 40 seconds → 150 Food, 60 Gold, 30 seconds
  • pull Arson to Feudal Age; cost: 150 Food, 50 Gold, 25 seconds → 100 Food, 100 Wood, 30 seconds
  • Squires: research time 40 seconds → 30 seconds
  • Bloodlines cost: 150 Food, 100 Gold, 50 seconds → 150 Food, 150 Gold, 60 seconds (holds off a little bit of the cavalry power, having infantry in mind; not sure if Archers would be affected)
  • consider dividing Forging, Iron Casting, and Blast Furnance into 2 separate paths for Infantry and Cavalry (cheapening it a bit to balance), so as to have more granularity and an easier time balancing civs strenghts.
  • after considering the above option, consider doing the same for Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, and Bracer, to have an easier time too with Archers, Buildings, and Ships, namely due to range balancing more than attack.

General Transport Ships:

  • Elephant units cost 2 pop space inside the Transport Ship
  • initial transport capacity of Transport Ships: 5 → 10
  • Careening still +5 transport cap; Dry Dock +10 cap → +5; Shipwright: +0 cap → +5
  • Dry Dock cost: 600 Food, 400 Gold → 500 Food, 300 Gold
  • Shipwright cost: 1000 Food, 300 Gold → 1000 Food, 450 Gold

General Defense:

  • Castle build cost: 650 Stone → 625 Stone, 50 Wood (it makes sense: rounds to the Stone cost of 5 Towers).
  • Murder Holes cost: 200 Food, 100 Stone → 100 Stone.
  • Arrowslits: Murder Holes now required; effect: ‘Watch Tower/Guard Tower/Keep/Donjon +1/+2/+3/+3 attack’ → ‘Watch Tower/Guard Tower/Keep/Donjon/Krepost/Castle +2/+2/+2/+3/+1/+1 attack’.
  • Bombard Towers: 2220 HP → 2250 HP (same as the Keep); build time: 80 seconds → 90 seconds; Bonus attack +4 vs Ram line.
  • According to the map size, an X tile radius is defined and atributed to each of the player’s Town Centers. Towers built within a Town Center’s radius take 0.75 times longer to construct and repair, while those built outside the radius take 1.25 times longer. This is to discourage Tower rushes and allow for more Tower based bonuses in the future. This new Tower radius mechanic could also include Castles/Donjons/Kreposts, to prevent their drops as well.

New Units/Techs - General:

  • new Unit: Steppe Scout - percursor to the Steppe Lancer: starting unit for the 5 main nomadic civs - Mongols, Huns, Magyars, Tatars, Cumans - and the Turks; balance its Line of Sight and the Steppe line accordingly. The Steppe Scout could have 1.2 movespeed, 4 range, and 0 range - same stats as the Scout Cavalry. Basically, a similar unit that upgrades to a different line, so as to keep inicial balance.
  • new tech available in the Monastery, Castle Age: ‘Monastery Masonry’: for 300 Food, 300 Gold, 40 seconds, upgrades your Monasteries to Fortified Churches, which fire arrows and have more HP, (similar cost to the Malay Unique Tech as a starting point); available to Armenians, Georgians, Slavs; requisite for building Fortified Churches.

New Units/Techs - Defense:

  • new tech available in the Castle, Castle Age, ‘Revetments’: for 250 Food, 250 Wood, 60 seconds, strengthens Castles, Towers, Donjons, Kreposts projectile defense, by slightly increasing their pierce armour, building armour (?), giving +5% HP, and giving bonus defense vs the Mangonel and Scorpion lines. Civ availabily to be defined.
  • new tech available in the Castle, Castle Age, ‘Moats’: for 250 Food, 250 Wood, 60 seconds, strengthens Castles, Towers, Donjons, Kreposts melee, by slightly increasing their armour, building armour (?), giving +5% HP, and giving bonus defense vs the Ram line. Civ availabily to be defined.
  • Hoardings: cost 400 Food, 400 Wood, 75 seconds → 250 Food, 250 Wood, 60 seconds; ‘Strengthens Castles and Donjons by providing +20% hit points’ → ‘Strengthens Castles providing +10% HP +1 LOS, Towers, Donjons, Kreposts +5% HP +1 LOS’ (LOS = Line of Sight).
  • Byzantines +HP% passive bonus adapted according to above points.

Civ Specific Balance:

Aztecs:

  • receive Masonry
    (- maybe rework the Jaguar Warrior into the Champion line?)

Bengalis:

  • Paiks effect: ‘Rathas and elephant units attack 20% faster’ → ‘Rathas and elephant units attack 30% faster’

Bohemians:

  • Blacksmiths and Universities cost -100 wood → Only Universities cost -100 wood

Britons:

  • new passive: Archery Ranges work 10% faster
    (old Team Bonus was 20% then nerfed to 10% due to Team Games. their winrate seems to be a bit below average and this new passive makes them retain their old 20% in 1v1s)

Bulgarians:

  • Krepost cost: 350 Stone → 350 Stone, 25 Wood; Garrison space 20 pop → 15 pop
  • receive Hoardings

Burmese:

  • remove (Heavy) Cavalry Archer
  • receive (Elite) Elephant Archer
  • passive ‘Battle Elephants +1/+1P armor’ → ‘Elephant units +1/+1P armor’
  • Howdah: ‘Battle Elephants +1/+1P armor’ → ‘Elephant units +1/+1P armor’
  • Howdah cost: 400 Food, 300 Wood → 400 Food, 400 Wood
  • Manipur Cavalry effect: ‘Cavalry deals +4 bonus attack vs. archers’ → ‘Cavalry deals +4 bonus attack vs. archers, Arambai +2 bonus attack vs. buildings’

Byzantines:

  • receive Heavy Scorpion (they heavily used it historically)

Celts:

  • remove Paladin (don’t know why they had it in the first place)
  • give Woad Raider a better look (they look like they belong in AoE1)

Chinese:
→ need to be split at least as much as the Indians

Cumans:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)

Dravidians:

  • (Elite) Urumi Swordsman: movespeed 1.05 → 1.1; gain +1(+2) bonus attack vs. villagers

Franks:

  • their Paladin gets replaced with the ‘Frankish Paladin’ - it uses the already existing Frankish Paladin skin and has its stats slightly tweaked as in the case of the new Savar.
  • passive ‘Foragers work 15% faster’ → ‘Foragers work 10% faster, berries 10% longer’
  • passive ‘Mill technologies free’ → ‘Mill technologies cost -50%, are researched 100% faster (half the time)’
  • ‘Cavalry +20% hit points starting in Feudal Age’ → ‘Knight-line +20% hit points’

Huns:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • remove Masonry
  • remove Stone Wall and Stone Gate
  • remove Faith (they have both Atheism and Faith?)
  • remove Illumination (how can monks regain faith faster with no Faith)
  • receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)
  • receive (Elite) Steppe Lancer
  • new passive: Arson applies to the Knight line (Arson gives +2 building attack; Tarkans have 10+)
  • (Elite) Tarkan movespeed: 1.35 → 1.365 (Knight line has 1.35)

Japanese:

  • remove Kataparuto as an Unique Tech and move part of its effect to a new passive: ‘Trebuchets fire 25% faster and pack/unpack 2X faster’
  • remove newest bonus ‘Cavalry Archers +2 attack vs. Archers’ as a passive
  • new Unique Tech in place of Kataparuto: Samurai Code/Bushido: cost 700 Food, 300 Gold, 60 seconds; effect ‘Samurai can now switch between melee and ranged attacks; Cavalry Archers +2 attack vs. Archers’

Incas:

  • Fabric Shields: ‘Kamayuks, Slingers, Eagles have +1 armor/+2 pierce armor’, 40 seconds → ‘+1 armor/+1 pierce armor’, 60 seconds
  • new passive, based on Couriers: Eagle Warriors +5% Speed (goes from 1.3 to 1.365; Hussar has 1.5) starting in Feudal Age

Italians:

  • new passive: first Monastery built spawns a free Monk

Khmer:

  • receive Arrowslits
  • remove (Heavy) Cavalry Archer
  • receive (Elite) Elephant Archer

Koreans:

  • new passive: Towers are built 20% faster
  • Eupseong effect: ‘Watch Towers, Guard Towers and Keeps have +2 range’ → ‘Watch Towers, Guard Towers, and Keeps have +2 range and are built 10% faster’

Magyars:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)
  • receive (Elite) Steppe Lancer
  • passive ‘Scout Cavalry, Light Cavalry, Hussar cost -15%’ → ‘Light Cavalry line, Steppe Lancer line cost -10% Food’

Mayans:

  • El Dorado renamed ‘Penance’ (the Mayans had bloodletting rituals (called ch’ahb’ in surviving hieroglyphs)), or just " ch’ahb’ "

Mongols:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • remove Fortified Wall
  • receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)
  • ‘Hunters work 40% faster’ → ‘Hunters work 25% faster’
  • replace Nomads tech with ‘Yurt Infrastructure’
  • Yurt Infrastructure: 250 Food, 250 Wood, 40 seconds; Houses build 75%, Mule Carts, Mills build 50%, Town Centers build 25% faster

Romans:

  • maybe receive their version of the Slinger and nerf appropriately?
  • Comitatenses: 700 Food, 800 Gold, train 50% faster → 600 Food, 600 Gold, train 33% faster

Saracens:

  • receive Caravanserai

Slavs:

  • rename to ‘Rus’ (?)
  • Supplies, Gambesons free → Only Supplies free
  • Fortified Church upgrade available

Spanish:

  • Builders work 30% faster → Builders work 20% faster
  • receive Siege Engineers

Tatars:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • remove Fortified Wall
  • receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)
  • new passive: Mule Carts +1/+1P armor
  • base Keshik train time: 17 seconds → 15 seconds (same as Elite)
  • new passive: ‘Steppe Lancers cost -10% Gold Castle, -20% Imperial Age’
  • Silk Armor cost: 400 Wood, 300 Gold → 300 Wood, 300 Gold
  • Timurid Siegecraft cost: 500 Wood, 400 Gold → 400 Wood, 400 Gold

Teutons:

  • their Paladin gets replaced with the ‘Crusader Knight’ - it uses the already existing Crusader Knight skin and has its stats slightly tweaked as in the case of the new Savar.

Turks:

  • start with Steppe Scout
  • receive base Steppe Lancer
  • passive ‘Scout Cavalry, Light Cavalry, Hussar +1P armor’ → ‘Light Cavalry line, Steppe Lancer line +1P armor’
  • receive Caravanserai

Vietnamese:

  • bonuses ‘Enemy positions are revealed at the start of the game’ and ‘Imperial Skirmisher upgrade available in the Imperial Age’ now swapped: Enemy Positions is now a Team Bonus and Imp Skirm is now a unique passive.
  • (Elite) Rattan Archer movespeed: 1.1 → 1.15
  • remove (Heavy) Cavalry Archer
  • receive (Elite) Elephant Archer
  • rename ‘Chatras’ to ‘Land of the Blue Dragon’ (name based on real life)
  • Land of the Blue Dragon: ‘Battle Elephants +100 HP’ → ‘Battle Elephants +100 HP, Elephant Archers +50 HP’
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Thats sure a lot to demand in one patch. How did you get so much time to have such wacky ideas? Most of them kinda outta left field and right field

Thanks for the laugh I guess

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You put a lot of thought into this, maybe too even much (do devs read/comment here? idk). But interesting ideas.

Hard NO on this, Castle Drops are already irritating enough as it is, and standard towers are already a waste of resource relative to Castles for nearly all Civilisations as well.

Sure, especially considering many regional Monk graphics exist already… and it’s not like people are going to mistake a regional Monk for anything else in MP.

There’s a MP-compatible mod for Byzantines to speak Greek existing for years, but yes should be in basegame. Might mention Persian dialogue is quite stilted with odd phrases. Incidentally speaker has an Afghan accent, which is fine.

  • Yes, monk techs should be more expensive. When Hera pointed imperial monk tech costs compared to say, Bracer, that really hit home for me.

This seems OP to me. Would be nice for Saracens to get the Camel scout though.

Sounds fine, but needs to be an Imperial Age tech. Again, Castle drops would be plain cancerous with this.

Aztecs:

Jaguar should be upgraded from Long Swords with stats adjusted accordingly… Jaguar is maybe the most useless UU in the entire game right now, literally NO reason to ever not use Champions instead with Aztecs.

Bohemians:

Blacksmiths and Universities cost -100 wood → Only Universities cost -100 wood

Bohemians are already pretty weak.

Bulgarians:

Krepost cost: 350 Stone → 300 Stone, 25 Wood; Garrison space 20 pop → 15 pop
receive Hoardings

I think you’re underestimating how good the Krepost still is now.

Burmese:

remove (Heavy) Cavalry Archer

Yeah SE Asian civs should get the elephant archer/siege, no brainer.

Chinese:
→ need to be split at least as much as the Indians

Hard disagree. Even during periods when China was disunited their ambitions of restoring Chinese political unity were always overwhelming. I’d say split Italians, except the Med architecture is already saturated.

Huns:

start with Steppe Scout
remove Masonry
remove Stone Wall and Stone Gate
remove Faith (they have both Atheism and Faith?)
remove Illumination (how can monks regain faith faster with no Faith)
receive Mule Cart; lose Mining Camp and Lumber Camp (they were nomadic)
receive (Elite) Steppe Lancer
new passive: Arson applies to the Knight line
(Elite) Tarkan movespeed: 1.35 → 1.365 (Knight line has 1.35)

Huns are now below average, mule cart would be a decent buff. Always thought they should lose stone walls. Arson for Knight-Line would be broken though, it could effect Tarkans & light cav.

Japanese:

remove Kataparuto as an Unique Tech and move part of its effect to a new passive: ‘Trebuchets fire 25% faster and pack/unpack 2X faster’
remove newest bonus ‘Cavalry Archers +2 attack vs. Archers’ as a passive
new Unique Tech in place of Kataparuto: Samurai Code/Bushido: cost 700 Food, 300 Gold, 60 seconds; effect ‘Samurai can now switch between melee and ranged attacks; Cavalry Archers +2 attack vs. Archers’

Japanese CA bonus seems really left-field to me, doesn’t really fit them imo. Agree about Samurai getting ratha treatment, you’d need to make range base-attack weak and only good versus UU’s though, otherwise it’s OP.

Koreans:

new passive: Towers are built 20% faster
Eupseong effect: ‘Watch Towers, Guard Towers and Keeps have +2 range’ → ‘Watch Towers, Guard Towers, and Keeps have +2 range and are built 20% faster’

That would be extremely unpopular to play against online. I’d rather have their bonus to make towers cheaper each Age, which buffs them without forcing them into always tower-rushing again.

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These are not happening sadly. We have been asking these for years.

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Thanks for your comment, loved reading it! This was my first post on this forum. I used to frequent the old AoK Heaven, etc, back in the day, and now have been backing a comeback.

Hard NO on this, Castle Drops are already irritating enough as it is, and standard towers are already a waste of resource relative to Castles for nearly all Civilisations as well.

It’s only 25 Stone cheaper, but I get what you mean. Also, now that you mention it, the new Tower radius mechanic could also include Castles, to prevent Castle drops too.

This (Steppe Scout) seems OP to me. Would be nice for Saracens to get the Camel scout though.

How does it seem OP if I just mentioned the new unit name :smiley: ? If you’re saying that because Steppe Lancers have +1 range, then the Steppe Scout can have the regular 0 range, as long as it can upgrade to the regular Steppe Scout. It has no negative repercussions besides just thematically accompanying the other nomadic changes.

Jaguar should be upgraded from Long Swords with stats adjusted accordingly… Jaguar is maybe the most useless UU in the entire game right now, literally NO reason to ever not use Champions instead with Aztecs.

That’s a very interesting idea (I edited the original post with it, to future users reading it). What always comes to my mind is that originally Eagle Warriors were supposed to be an Aztec-only unit. AoE2 is way too simplistic in its depictions.

Bohemians are already pretty weak.

I used aoestats.io all throughout this post’s investigation when I needed sources for winrates. There, it points to Bohemians as one of the top winning civs.

I think you’re underestimating how good the Krepost still is now.

I may have been. I’ve since edited the original post to ‘350 Stone, 25 Wood’.

(on China split) Hard disagree

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Unless we can fit the Jurchens and company with the current Chinese.

Huns are now below average, mule cart would be a decent buff.

Once again, according to aoestats.io they are one of the top civs, believe it or not.

Always thought they should lose stone walls.

I’ve always thought they should lose Stone Walls too (and I remember they did, for a very, very brief moment, back in The Forgotten, if I’m not mistaken, but it was reverted)! I was like, c’mon Goths don’t have them and Huns are supposed to be an all offensive civ.

Arson for Knight-Line would be broken though, it could effect Tarkans & light cav.

I think Arson makes all sense, they do have the Tarkan and the Huns were an all destroying civ back in the day (in real life, I mean; not much is left from them). I didn’t mod the game to test these values, so if it was broken we can fix it. Maybe it could affect the Light Cavs, as you said. Maybe even the Steppe Lancers.

Japanese CA bonus seems really left-field to me, doesn’t really fit them imo.

I think it was a nod from the devs relative to the samurai also being horse riders in real life and AoE2 not having the Samurai as a double-stance unit.

That would be extremely unpopular to play against online. I’d rather have their bonus to make towers cheaper each Age, which buffs them without forcing them into always tower-rushing again.

Remember the Towers have the new Town Center radius mechanic in this hypothetical patch, which aims to prevent any Tower Rushes, only having Towers as defensive structures.
That said, I’ll lower the total bonus from 40 to 30% faster.

Thanks again for your comments :slight_smile:

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They already have that.

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Wow basically you’re asking for a new game :sweat_smile:
This is a pretty conservative community so good luck!
Now that we’re here I always wondered why town centers don’t hold 10 pop space instead of 5… I mean to me it’s really a no brainer, they’re not like houses.
Also what’s the point of being pop capped right when you start the game?

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Chinese civilization bonus.

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This is not a huge patch. This is worth 2 DLCs at least.

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I’d like to have a proper think about all these ideas of yours, but I’ll just focus on the few things that caught my attention:

All Franks really need is for their Farm OR (not both) forage bonus to be axed. Just slightly reducing the foraging speed doesn’t seem to be enough.
The Frankish Paladin skin sounds nice on paper, but I’d rather the skin be given to a unique Paladin replacement, just like the Savar; otherwise it’d be just like a mod from the occasional event, except this time it’s forced on you.

I agree with everything else, but this kinda takes away from the Tarkans’ identity as pseudo-siege cavalry. Personally, I’d make them lose Capped & Siege Ram, give them Onager & Siege Onager, and maybe buff Marauders a little by doing something like Chieftains (gain resources when killing specific units).

I’m a MASSIVE advocate for Samurai being given the originally-planned melee-ranged switch, but I’d rather they have the ability by default.

See Franks.

Enemy positions being revealed is already a team bonus since your allies see it regardless; it just doesn’t have the official label. Making it the team bonus is an unnecessary nerf in my eyes since it would give the Viets a similar situation as to what the Burmese currently have with theirs; just swap enemy TCs with Relics.
The Imperial Skirmisher being a team bonus is arguably one of the weaker TBs, but I wouldn’t make the upgrade exclusive to Viets. I can see it being an almost regional upgrade by giving it to a good number of civilizations instead.

…that said, I actually have no idea as to what kind of team bonus Viets should have as a replacement, 11

I do agree with the majority of your other ideas, and I’m a big fan of increasing the distribution of Mule Carts, Steppe Lancers (I make the occasional push for Steppes in particular) and Elephant Archers. And, of course, everything you have listed under “General Style Changes” is a check for me.

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That just shows how slow the game moves towards good changes :frowning:

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Already a very popular mod for this. Search “Blood” under mods, it’s one of the most downloaded mods available

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Thank you for your comment! :slight_smile:

The Frankish Paladin skin sounds nice on paper, but I’d rather the skin be given to a unique Paladin replacement, just like the Savar; otherwise it’d be just like a mod from the occasional event, except this time it’s forced on you.

Great idea! I’ll edit the original post to reflect that for future users reading it

I agree with everything else, but this kinda takes away from the Tarkans’ identity as pseudo-siege cavalry. Personally, I’d make them lose Capped & Siege Ram, give them Onager & Siege Onager, and maybe buff Marauders a little by doing something like Chieftains (gain resources when killing specific units).

I mean, the Tarkans would still be better as anti-building units. With that said, I see where you’re coming from…
I definitely like your idea of slightly buffing Marauders and giving them a further “marauder” civ thematic.

I’m a MASSIVE advocate for Samurai being given the originally-planned melee-ranged switch, but I’d rather they have the ability by default.

I agree with this too. Just made it part of the Unique Tech so as not to be too radical with the change. I made this same post yesterday on Reddit, just to share, and the comments there haven’t been too nice, for some reason. Unpleasant, in fact

See Franks.

Same agree

On Vietnamese…

One thing I’d like to add regarding the Viets, is that their winrate keeps being a bit below average. Honestly, with their Ele Archer change, I think that’d be an helping hand, but not sure if that’s enough against any civ that’s not archer focused. I like the Viet civ. Goths are my favorite, but I love the Viets too.

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I’ve edited the post in some points, namely the below 3:

“new Unit: Steppe Scout (…) balance its Line of Sight and the Steppe line accordingly. The Steppe Scout could have 1.2 movespeed, 4 range, and 0 range - same stats as the Scout Cavalry. Basically, a similar unit that upgrades to a different line, so as to keep inicial balance.”

I agree with everything else, but this kinda takes away from the Tarkans’ identity as pseudo-siege cavalry (…)

“- new passive: Arson applies to the Knight line (Arson gives +2 building attack; Tarkans have 10+)”

All Franks really need is for their Farm OR (not both) forage bonus to be axed

A possible middle ground:
" - passive ‘Foragers work 15% faster’ → ‘Foragers work 10% faster, berries 10% longer’"
" - passive ‘Mill technologies free’ → ‘Mill technologies cost -50%, are researched 100% faster (half the time)’"

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I just want follow this topic some change look OK but :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:. I want see people think

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Not a bad idea actually, though it change many from the tradition.
You need more names for the new techs in the Blacksmiths.

so do not the siege units?

I don’t like that the buildings have a effect radius different from the attack range. A building having 2 type of ranges in a same time is somehow annoying to me, like the Celt stronghold castles and the Georgian fortified churches.

I don’t oppose this unit, but I’d say that it should belong to only 1 civ as a civ bonus. Maybe Huns, or Mongols, or a new civ.

The Turks and the Magyars can not have the steppe lancers when the unit is named ‘steppe’ lancer. They were not living in the Eurasia steppe in the most of time of the timeline. I think this is a issue about principle.

No, sorry. It’s a regional building for the Caucasian civs. You can not lock it by a tech.

So, what should the new Aztec UU be?
I’d like to try rework first instead. Maybe give Jaguar as same attack bonus to against cavalry as the one against infantry. They have no Halberdiers so the Jaguars could be their Halberdiers but needing Castles and gold.

If the reason of getting Mule Carts is that they were nomads, why the Armenians and Georgians can have them?

Remove them from the Armenians and Georgians, or just let them be the regional buildings for the Armenians and Georgians.

Atheism is based on the impress of Romans to them, since they had shown no any mercy and sympathy to kill Christian monks and ruined Christian monasteries.
They actually believed the Tengri. Just saying.

Removing Kataparuto is a must. But the Trebuchets bonus could leave for new civs. Japanese had never skilled to produce and use a trebuchet. Just giving Bombard Cannons to them to make up the siege ability.

As the other user saying, revealing enemy position is de facto a team bonus.
If you want swap the Imperial skirmishers with something, you could choose the free Conscription.

NO.

In fact, the Vietnamese had had schools to train horse archers, and their skilled horse archer effectively participated in the Invasion of Song China, and fought against Champa and the Khmer Empire. On the other hand, the Vietnamese did use elephants in warfare but not really impressive. Many times they had use elephants against the northern invaders, but the elephants often got shocked and panicked and turned to hurt the friendly troops.

Just leave them the Battle Elephants and Cavalry Archers.

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Thank you for your comment!

Not a bad idea actually, though it change many from the tradition

As long as it’s for the best :wink:

so do not the siege units?

You’re right

I don’t like that the buildings have a effect radius different from the attack range. A building having 2 type of ranges in a same time is somehow annoying to me, like the Celt stronghold castles and the Georgian fortified churches.

I don’t like it very much either, but it’s the best idea I got to combat Tower/Castle/etc drops. Make them harder, a disadvantage

The Turks and the Magyars can not have the steppe lancers when the unit is named ‘steppe’ lancer. They were not living in the Eurasia steppe in the most of time of the timeline. I think this is a issue about principle.

I very much respect your sense of historical accuracy
With that said, both the early Magyars and the early Turks originated from the Eurasian Steppes. They lived nomadic (and equestrian) livestyles. Even if their later people were not nomadic, the purpose of the Steppe Scouts is precisely to convey their origins

No, sorry. It’s a regional building for the Caucasian civs. You can not lock it by a tech.

I get what you mean. I got this idea by seeing how many people complained that the Fortified Church is too strong for it’s easy of access and cost. We can just put it behind a “paywall”, just like the Harbor is to the Malay. In addition to that, I took the liberty of giving them to the Slavs. Everything I read about slavic people and religious practises showed they were more than good enough to have the Fortified Church.

So, what should the new Aztec UU be?

Not sure. In truth, I remember reading that originally only Aztecs had Eagle Warriors (in real life too). Now that their part of the Mayans and Incas, it’s a tough choice. Personally? I’d make the Eagle Warriors the Aztec Unique Unit, the Jaguar Warrior the regional one (I’ve read somewhere this has historical basis), and replace the plain-boring Skirmisher-related Unique Techs the 3 Meso civs have for something more flavourful. As in, the Unique Tech for the Incas, in my choice, would probably be the Couriers one, that speeds units a bit, based on real life. That, or give them 3 civs a Unique Tech related to their rituals and sacrifices.

If the reason of getting Mule Carts is that they were nomads, why the Armenians and Georgians can have them?

Honestly? I think the devs liked the idea of the Mule Cart and, as they were the new civs, gave it to them, not giving to the older civs because apparently the AoE2 team in control of the decisions doesn’t like major civ [re]design choices decision making. Or else we would be making this whole post in the first place.

Remove them from the Armenians and Georgians, or just let them be the regional buildings for the Armenians and Georgians.

The Armenians and Georgians were not nomadic people, believe it or not, so I’d say remove it from them and give it to the right ones.

Atheism is based on the impress of Romans to them, since they had shown no any mercy and sympathy to kill Christian monks and ruined Christian monasteries.
They actually believed the Tengri. Just saying.

I remember reading about that a long time ago. My design here came from a more simplistic view, by abstracting the Huns, just taking the knowledge there is not much left of them and they were razers, destroyers. I admit it’s superficial. Hence, also, the choice of nerfing their buildings. With all this said - and these choices were based on real life, contrary to most of the AoE2 dev choices - they can still have passable monks and I wouldn’t bat an eye. It bothers me more them not being AoE2 official nomads and have ‘Stone Wall, Gates, Masonry, etc’.

Removing Kataparuto is a must. But the Trebuchets bonus could leave for new civs. Japanese had never skilled to produce and use a trebuchet. Just giving Bombard Cannons to them to make up the siege ability.

I also agree with this. There’s not much to agree with, really, it’s just a fact. Japanese didn’t hang around Trebuchets very much…
I retained part of the Treb bonus so as not to compromise too much and find a middle ground.
I agree with not giving them any Treb special bonuses. Regarding the Bombard Cannons, I’d have to investing and ponder more. They don’t have ideal ways to approach Siege Onagers, for example. Honestly, at this point, I just start remembering more and more “Why are the Celts and Ethiopians such heavy Siege civs?”.

As the other user saying, revealing enemy position is de facto a team bonus.

True, just not the best bonus, and it needs the Viet player to always ping/write it out to the team

If you want swap the Imperial skirmishers with something, you could choose the free Conscription.

Interesting, but I’m sure we can find something even more fun

NO. In fact, the Vietnamese had had schools to train horse archers (…) Just leave them the Battle Elephants and Cavalry Archers.

From what I read about the Viets military elephant forces, I got the idea they were passable, even in comparison with their horses.
I’ll edit the original post and revert that change. With that made, though, we’ll have to remember of something to slightly buff the Viets, as they’re falling behind on the winrates and are almost one-dimensional, in my opinion. I still find the ‘Paper Money’ ordeal such an odd such from the part of the devs. Lots of civs have such a bonus nowadays. Age of Trickles 2

Edit: I’ve edited the text on my personal annotations but it seems like I can’t edit the original post anymore (it was my first post on this forum so I don’t know the rules yet, but if you know how to edit it after the 24 initial hours please tell me).

I’ve edited the Vietnams tby reverting the Ele Archer and adding:
" - (Elite) Rattan Archer: movespeed: 1.1 → 1.15; train time 16 → 20"
“- Land of the Blue Dragon: ‘Battle Elephants +100 HP’ → ‘Battle Elephants +100 HP, (Elite) Rattan Archer train faster (20 secs → 10 secs)’”

I’ve also added ‘- now start with Camel Scout’ to the Saracens. If you think any more civs should get it please tell me.

Finally, I’ve included siege units in the transport civ 1 → 2 pop space, in addition to elephants, and edited the Spanish to:
“- remove passive ‘Builders work 30% faster’”
"- new passive: ‘Treadmill Crane free’ "
“- receive Siege Engineers”

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Actually, it doesn’t. The non-Viet ally sees exactly where the enemies’ TCs are without the need for the Viet to spell it out to them, due to shared LoS existing at the very start of the game. That’s kinda the point I was getting at.

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Don’t use toxic to heal a disease.

In most of the timeline of the game, they are settled and not in the Eurasian Steppes.
I have to firmly insist the principle that the Steppe Lancer belongs to the civs who (most of the time) lived on the Eurasian Steppes. Do not give them the Steppe Lancer, Otherwise, it would be the beginning of the slippery slope.

The Steppe Scout, something like Camel Scout, should be for only 1 civ. That is how the game design, because it is a civ bonus, not just for the accuracy. I would choose the Huns cause they need a little bit buff in my opinion.

Then just nerf the building in the Castle age rather than locking it.

You chose the wrong answer.
The Mule Carts definitely will not be removed from the Armenians and the Georgians. They do be designed, be created, be introduced into the game for these 2 civs, and the civs are designed based on them, such like the civ bonuses. I’d give the nomadic civs something new rather than robbing something existing for the other civs.

You might need compromise for your other changes, but not this one.
Giving the Japanese the Trebuchet buff as a civ bonus is not only inaccuracy but also imbalance in my opinion.
The Bombard Cannons are fine to them, they have bad cavalry so they could use Cannons to deal with the ranged units and especially the Onagers.

It is pretty useful actually. The team free Conscription means your allies can benefited from the Conscription immediately when hitting the Imperial age without even a Castle.

I’d like to let the Paper Money also provide emergency gold besides the trickle effect, such like 100 gold for every TC and Castle.

No. If the Saracens get the Camel Scout, I’d like to remove the Camel Scout from the Gurjaras.

The Spanish do not need Siege Engineers, but receiving the Crossbowmen is nice.
Not only accurate but also make the early game have more way can play. Their Archer-line would not be invested in the later game anyway so the balance is fine too.

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