Hussite Wagons feel like they’re losing their identity as a gunpowder unit, due to their attack being lower, and they’re also becoming much more similar to the Organ Gun, except even worse. They are no longer good against high-pierce armor targets like they were before, especially knights, which, ironically, they were used in real life to fight against.
In essence, the devs fixed what wasn’t broken, and the bug with the secondary projectiles felt more like a side effect of their intended role being stationary protection. Now, they’re just worse Organ Guns. Those two gunpowder units really lost a lot of their punch, and no longer feel like gunpowder units.
Someone in the comments on Spirit’s video said that the devs were trying to make Hussite Wagons fit the pro meta more. I have an issue with that. The devs have lately been trying to make pros happy, rather than doing what’s best for the game. The casual fanbase should be the primary focus, and then the pros, and I say this as a guy who loves to watch tournament play.
I agree with all your points… except that Hussite Wagons are not viable at high level, and Bohemians (borderline) under-powered on open maps. Surely, adjusting open maps without making them (even more) insane on Arena etc. is tricky.
But making them more micro-intensive is certainly a bad idea in my opinion. Their problem is their role in the Bohemian army: hold a position? Hand cannoneers and halberdiers are already perfect for that. Other strategies are 404: not found for Bohemians, as they lack mobility, but make it work in spite of that.
Perhaps they should be more expensive, and slower, but harder-hitting? I don’t know.
Organ guns before nerf were completely broken in castle age as they were killing everything, now they are worse in low numbers but better in high ones, they are fine.
About Hussite Wagons, well let them see how will be played, Bohemians anyway go Houfnice more often.
What I don’t get is why people don’t mix in hussite wagons with their other ranged units. Maybe my elo is just too low for them to lose their strength, but in my experience even one or two mixed into a larger group of archers can make a pretty profound impact in a fight. Even just tasking an army of xbows and 3 hussite wagons at me in AI control while I micro an equal-value body of vietnamese crossbows results in me typically losing.
I guess that’s the only viable situation where you will use HW. But even then, won’t mangonel make more sense? They won’t absorb damage but will force xbow to either harder micro or retreat.
They’re meant as a support unit and Bohemians already have answers for most high PA units (excellent spearline for cav, early HC for eagles/huskarls). There’s no (gameplay) reason for Hussite Wagons to be particularly good vs cav in isolation - and they definitely weren’t before this change. I agree that the changes are a little odd, and I would have preferred that they go in a different direction e.g. garrison or having them unpack and turn into a weaker tower, but getting rid of the stutter-shots was absolutely a good thing.
Also it’s a little weird SOTL didn’t test them in mass. Depending on how the secondary projectiles work, there’s a chance of them being better in and against groups than the 1v1 tests show due to the extra projectiles.
I’d say more micro-capable rather than intensive. They still benefit from the faster fire rate whether you do anything or not, but now you’re not actively punished for trying to micro them, which was just bad design.
My biggest complaint is that they’re just a tankier organ gun. Devs already changed the organ gun cause it was just a tanky janissary.
I do think that having more but lower attack secondary projectiles makes sense conceptually, but this is just a lateral move IMO. they possibly marginally fixed one problem (unit is useless), by introducing a new problem (how is this different from the organ gun except tankier).
I don’t get the devs sometimes. Sometimes they do something like give magyars a team bonus for 20% faster created mounted archers, or incas everybody start with a free llama, and I think the devs are some 200 IQ wizards.
But them sometimes they do stuff like this where it just feels like they’re just unwittingly moving a problem around.
The devs have it in them. I know they do. But this feels like a half-baked fix for a half baked unit. I think there’s a better idea out there. I don’t think this will be the last change to the Hussite wagon.
I think they should have a pack/unpack ability like trebuchets.
The projectile interception should be replaced by a normal aura that gives nearby units extra pierce armour.
This aura would only exist in the unpacked version.
The packed version would be similar to now, it can move and shoot.
The unpacked version gains a little more attack damage, range and armour (melee and pierce) on top of the new aura.
The unpacked version should also block enemy unit movements more then allied one somehow. Not sure if it’s possible to have different hotbox sizes for different players.
This would make them useful on open maps by kinda turning them into closed maps if you have enough of them.
The existing gimmick is already a good enough approximation of this. The pack/unpack thing is interesting, but that and a shield/damage reduction mechanic is more than enough to define a UU. Different size hitbox is overkill and probably wouldn’t work. HW doesn’t need some crazy rework or a triple gimmick, just reliable DPS and a good synergy with other units.
Overall I think it’s a good move, but they should raise the attack. The slow trickle of 1 damage shots after the initial shot is as bad and thematically weird as anything - going back to that would be silly.
They really should just make the secondary shots do more damage but not interrupt the main shot.
That would make them capable of micro (which the current version is not) it just wouldn’t be optimal.
Here’s an odd idea; what if they just got a free hussite wagon on reaching castle age? They’re pretty weak at that stage and it could really encourage the kind of play they want them to be used for, mixing a few wagons with other units.
The current gimmick is essentially useless.
What kina arbitrary situation would it make sense in?
Maybe if they could unpack and become stationary but better armoured it would be more reasonable to use them as shielding for ranged units.
They already have 7/10 pierce armor. How much more do they really need?
The intended use seems to be mixing a few hussite wagons with a larger force of archers. And it does work to a certain extent. Becoming stationary wouldn’t particularly add anything they don’t already have, but it would make them incapable of a lot of stuff they’re currently capable of doing.
They just need to tweak the firing pattern so it’s not so awkward.
Mostly just good for protecting HC/Arb from an enemy trying to micro them down with skirms, which is indeed niche. If their hitbox was higher they could intercept siege projectiles, but that would probably be too strong. Either way, I don’t like the idea of them shielding units standing in front of them, and I don’t think HW needs much of a buff - Bohemians don’t depend on them much. But they could be made a little stronger and more user-friendly.
