Hypothetical tech tree changes based on history

The civs mentioned in this thread are Cumans and Magyars. The reason for the thoughts are that Cumans settled in Europe later than the Magyars, which means that Magyars should have more “European techs” and Cumans should have more “Steppe techs”. This also modifies Goths and Berbers to some extent.

What’s wrong with the current scenario?
→ Cumans have full infantry while Magyars lack Plate Mail
→ Cumans have Siege Ram and Siege Onagers
→ Magyars have above average CA, while Cumans have below average CA


Tech tree -
Archery Range - same
Barracks - same, Supplies absent
Stable - same as current, SL may or may not be present
Blacksmith - miss Ring Archer Armor
Siege Workshop - SR, Scorpion, Siege Engineers, SO may or may not be present

UU - Magyar Huszar (stats same as current, costs 100F, 0G)

UTs -
Steppe Ancestry (Light Cavalry and Cavalry Archer units created 100% faster) [so benefits Huszars as well]
Mercenaries - teammates can create 5 post-imperial Magyar Huszars per Castle for free (irrespective of civ which creates them and irrespective of the BS upgrades researched, the unit for any civilization will always have 14 melee attack, 3/6 armor, 1.65 speed, 105 HP, etc). These Magyar Huszars may or may not be convertible.

Civ bonuses -
Melee attack upgrades free
Hunt lasts 30% longer
Villagers have +5 attack vs animals (both boar and wolves)

Team bonus - foot archers +2 LoS


Tech tree -
Archery Range - same
Barracks - same
Stable - same as Persians + Steppe Lancers
Blacksmith - Missing Plate Mail, Bracer may or may not be present
Siege Workshop - same as Huns, but with Siege Engineers (effect of Mongols)

In addition to the unmentioned buildings, Cumans lack Chemistry as well. This shows the lack of science among them since they were struggling for survival. Offset by addition of recurve bow and bracer.

UU - same as current, but costs +10G

UTs -
Recurve Bow (all mounted archers +1 attack, +1 range)
Steppe Husbandry (same as Husbandry)

Civ bonuses-
Additional TC available in Feudal Age
Siege Workshop and Battering Ram available in Feudal Age
Capped Ram available in Castle Age
Barracks, Archery Ranges, Stable cost -75 wood

Team bonus- Palisade walls and gates +33% HP

Goths: Lose their hunting bonus for Magyars

Berbers: Cavalry 10% cheaper in Feudal Age in addition to current bonuses

General change: Steppe Lancers +2 (another +1 for Elite) attack vs Eagles, -1 melee attack, cost -5G.

:rofl::joy::joy::rofl::rofl: Wtf? Nevermind all the other highly unnecessary overly convoluted changes… Why do you want to nerf the SL? The gold cost is NOT what is holding it back, so this is simply a massive nerf

Tell us you hate goths without saying you hate goths :rofl::joy:

Excellent idea! Let’s buff one of the best civs on the ladder. I totally agree Berbers need a buff :joy::rofl::joy:

Kipchaks that are 6% faster with +2 range and (maybe) more damage.? :joy: On buffed cumans (super fast heavy camels, nevermind the rest of their stable, and saving even more wood in feudal)

Devs are totally going to do this. Especially since they specifically nerfed the kipchak. And specifically nerfed the +21% speed


I think for these kind of stuff its better if you just create a mod. people who likes it would want to play it, or you get guys above who would reply for the sake of balance and ignore your post title altogether.


This all seems highly convoluted, unnecessary, and at best should be a mod.
Historicall accuracy is not a reason to rework two civs
N2m berbers dont need a buff and goths definitely dont need nerfs


Yeah I’ve seen this kind of thing enough times that I’ve come to think this would be best for most of these type of threads, or just to have a separate forum/area for brainstorming/“hypothetical” ideas. Otherwise it almost invariables goes:

  1. Highly specific ideas for change that are unlikely to be popular-> Pushback → Entrenchment or introduction of new unpopular ideas → Devolves into pointless argument highlighting multiple peoples’ mutually incompatible visions for the game → Rinse and repeat with new thread (usually several threads like this pop up every day).

If you want the game to be highly different from what it currently is, I would encourage you not to make a thread about it. Make a mod/scenario and let those who are interested in your vision participate in it that way. It’s weird, but a lot of the threads that seem to get the most engagement seem to be the least useful (i.e. primarily dominated by arguments that go nowhere.)

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the circle of death x20

This is not a balance mod. I am just recollecting the bonuses for more coherent civs.

If Berbers gets nerf, it should be stable units 10% cheaper in all ages. There is no need to buff them.

What about 10, 10, 15?

Brother half the civs in the game wouldn’t have chemistry, crossbows, 4-5 of them wouldn’t even have wheelbarrow, and forging too.

I mean, it’s a game with a simple design, all civs get chemistry, all civs get trebs. All civs get hand cart, all civs get ships.

Going too deep in the historical accuracy will just make the game more asymmetric, which isn’t something a lot of people want.

And in terms of balancing around historical accuracy like you proposed:
You are unnecessarily nerfing Magyars, which from the very beginning were designed as more complete Huns that are slowed to get going.
You also are nerfing Cumans, which are conceptualized as very similar to Burmese in terms of their composition and tech tree- a cavalry civ with a mounted ranged UU that provides utility in the Castle age, but are expected to transition to a cavalry-infantry-siege composition in imp.

Cumans are Cumans with the way they are because they have FU hussars, but they also have a ranged UU to support a halb + siege composition if needed. They remind us of Bulgarians a bit, if the Bulgarian player decides to mix in HCA, which are decent enough.

I think that all of the steppe civs have their subtle differences in imp that make them the way they are, and those shouldn’t be changed, as conceptually they are very unique in post imp, while also very similar.

Now that you have removed plate mail from Cumans, and siege engineers, how do they deal with Celt/Bulgarian/Teuton/Slav/Sicilian/etc champ halb SO?

Now that you have removed the extra range and extra armor that they have over Hun CA, give me 1 reason to pick Magyars over Huns.

This one was for balance since CA get both Bracer and Recurve Bow.

You mean by giving them dark age food bonus

Super range mounted archers!? It’s a bit of micro, but Kipchaks and Mangudai are part anti-siege as well.

Also how do the current Magyars counter it?

Not sure. From balance perspective, I think it will be okay. But is the extra 5% discount in Imperial really necessary?

Counter Halb SO? Probably CA and Magyar Huszar.

But the thing is these civs you propose aren’t coherent at all. Your version of magyars is just a crap civ that nobody would play (not even FU cav archers).

I agree that cumans should get bracer and lose chemistrie but for everything else I don’t see a reason to implement that.

Usually by the 8 range CA and the Mag Hus that deal 25 damage per hit to siege.

30% longer hunt? Lmao? Okay

And that’s a bad thing because? Magyar CA are good. But they are borderline impossible to get to anyway.

You forget that my Recurve bow is a castle age tech. It’s because Castle Age means the Steppe time and Imperial Age means the Settlement in Europe time, which is denoted by top tier Paladins.

Kipchaks are better than regular CA at countering monks, siege and buildings though.

That’s intentional though, since they left their nomadic ways and embraced the European influence → Weaker CA and bonus for Knights

Don’t underestimate the bonus. Hunt can make or break early game. Just ask the Mongols and Mayans.

But magyars is a cav archer hussar civ in late game. Now you take that away and the civ literally has nothing left. They just go from one of the best to a rather weak one for late game . Paladin without any bonuses doesn’t really make sense so you need to play arbalests and (magyar) hussar or what? That’s pretty awkward as you usually wanna play knights in midgame. That’s what I mean by lack of coherence. You claim you make civs more coherent but actually you do the opposite.

Give Magyars Bombard Cannon, Hand Cannoneer, Bombard Tower, Architecture and Hoardings based on history.

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You mean to say that they have only FU Paladins and Polish level Arbalesters? Besides full infantry, siege and awesome UU

Exactly. Decent arbalest but no eco bonus and paladin that nobody is gonna use. So bad eco and at best mediocre units so simply a bad civ late game. You don’t care about infantry because there isn’t any point to use it. Right now the main reason magyars is good past feudal age is the option to build up to your insane cav archers late game.