Idea for Italians

Italians aren’t the best on Arabia, they are surely below average but they are definitely not “horrible”.

They have a very nice tech tree and a minor eco bonus on land maps.

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Personally i likes the idea… Because they have done this with the indians, why shouldn’t they do the Same for other umbrella civ?
to be objective, you Need to consider:

Previouvsly indians represented a very huge macro-area on the world. Its more Easy to split them, Italians are only in the North of the peninsula.

Also the changed that they had in the patch Notes before their rework were a bit bland (+1/+1 armor and Lost the last cav armor). Instead Italians had some Little more love with the -33% at the universities and docks, and some changed since DE came out

Is It true Also that the Italians releases in the forgotten expansion and they are an umbrella civ, but the peninsula Is yet partially covered by the sicilians.

I Also think that there Is this potential of splitting in 2/3 civ for other Areas in the world (cinese, slavs, Italians…)
But at the same time im aware of some things:

Even if i would love One expansion with the focus on the peninsula i think that for the sake of the game and for what the current italian civ represent Also in the campaing, It would be counterproductive.

I likes the vision of the current Italians like the Union of the city-states in the north-west of Italy. The states under the rule of the HRE, the states that formed the lombard League. Also the civ now represent clealry with in-game UI and units Milan (ex: the Snake of milan Is on the UI, the campaing has here the focus with the story of sforza). Genoa (“UU”, naval Power, coat of arms). Tuscany (with the condottiero, even if the condos were not only from tuscany various campaing says that the condos are from Tuscany, and the crossbows are from Genoa, Also the easy-age-up could be for the Power and wealth of the duchy of Tuscany).

The only thing that could be done with the current italian civ, exept some changed here and there (silk Road), is the in game language, and maybe give them a more medieval-italian language, maybe only with some worlds, because it’s still evolving, but not completely shared with the bizantines.

Being said that i think that the devs are aware of the umbrella civs (they splitted the indians…), but this leave Also One huge possibility of a DLC partially on the italian peninsula:

Venice was indipendent from the HRE and was founded since the destruction of Aquileia from the Huns (campaing reference), thery are the enemy in the italian campaign (campaign reference), and they fought in the Battle of Lepanto (historical Battle reference)… (Just to say somerhing that Is already in the game and Is easly capable ti connect them, they Will be justified, and Is not somerhing that Cami in my mind fron scratch. but there is more that for the sake of time i Will leave out…)

Since Venice fought: the italian states likes in the sforza campaign, the normans for the adriatic, bizantines, Turks and in the balkans. I think there Is potential for the Venetian civ alongside with 1-2 civs on the balkans.
Or of you want a DLC like the silk Road you could easly have the venetians, One balkans civ and One on Asia, and speak about the trade thanks to Venice in the routes in Asia with this new civ (Asia Is not my focus on study and/or “knowing” so i Will leave the Asia civ with this generic name)

And Remember that the devs could still relase “Fill-Hole” civilizatios (One on europe, 1 on Asia, One on south America for example… ← these are the first areas in the world that came in my mind)

Remember that with this in not saying that this idea of Venice and the balkans must be the priority in the game, im Just sharing my opinion, but if implemented, obiouvsly Is Better sooner than later.

So at the end my opinion is that the states that now represent the italians in the game should not be touched (from Milan and in the west till the border with France and in the south with the tuscany) (exept for balancing reasons of course). But at the same time we could explore the balkan-adriatic area wit a new DLC and implement the Venetians in the game.

Also because the devs can’t mplement every Little identity info the game… (Ex: Every city in Italy or in germany). Personally i think It Will be Lost the artistic-Freedom of the gsme (like the fact that every meso-civ has Eagles or that some bonuses are too general, or konniks are the only that fight dismounted…)…

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You missed them showing up in the barbarosa campaign before sofraza or attila.

Because india is a heck of a lot more diverse then other civs.
Because India is a heck of a lot bigger, with more people and different cultures and religions.

Slavs have already been split.

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because Italians are not as big of a part of the world population as Indians, and while “interesting history” matters, representing how medieval times were in all interesting countries also matters. It’s not an “include at all costs” but Africa for example has a lot of unexplored history that could be interesting in this game.

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Why should we focus on some city states when we’re missing out on actually unique empires basically anywhere elsewhere?

Italy is not a continent which needs bazillion civs. It was already quite exceptional that Sicilians were added. I wouldn’t ever had guessed that.

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“why on earth would you think italy should be a priority compared to the others” is the better question. there’s no way you can justify an italian split over the tons of other civs that would add more to the game

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Other than tibet which empire is missing from the game?which are not already covered by a ingame civi?

Sicilians are more like Sicilian-Normans, basically it’s the dynasty that ravaged Europe in the early Middle Ages.

Jin Empire
Xi Xia Empire
Liao Empire
Gajapati Empire
Songhai Empire
Kanem-Bornu Empire
Adal Empire
Mutapa Empire
Gokturk Khaganate
Uyghur Khaganate
Khazar Khaganate
(and 25 Kingdoms that are more important than Italian village-duchies)

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Italians are not a bad open map civ at all. They have fully upgraded hussar for late game raiding, cheaper age ups, a solid expansive tech tree with fully upgraded arbs and cavaliers. Great infantry with the condoteri. Even get cheaper university techs for that crossbow ballistics power spike

I dont mind splitting them up so we can get interesting civs like Venice and Papal states with the possibilty of the legendary swiss pikemen but the justification for that is fun not because italians are in anyway underpowered

On the European side of the sea, Aragonese/Catalans, Croatians and/or Serbians. In the Middle East and North Africa, any new civs would probably come from a Berber and/or Saracen split which, in my opinion, should be it’s own thing. We could maybe get the Crusader states (Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.) but I’m not sure it would be very popular.
Personally I think Aragonese and Venetian could come together with a rework of both Spanish and Italians (maybe with Spanish being renamed as Castilians?) but I don’t really want to see that until many other parts of the world have been taken care of, at which point we would probably be long past the 48 civs limit.

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also in my opinion the Italians need some small adjustments, first of all, the language, for practically the whole Middle Ages the Italians already spoke languages ​​that were closer to the current Italian than to Latin (practically only the church continued to use Latin ), could easily replace the current language with that of the Italian units of ‘Age III’ (which is already an archaic Italian), then two ideas to make the “Italians” a more generic civilization (so that it can better represent all the states of medieval northern Italy) change the name of the ‘Genoese Crossbowman’ to ‘Pavisier’, one other thing I would change is the wonder, replace the ‘Cathedral of St. Lawrence in Genoa’ with a more generic 'square adorned with statues and a fountain ‘(a kind of “Trevi fountain” but fanciful), while the aforementioned Cathedral of St. Lawrence may be available in the editor (along with other famous medieval Italian buildings such as the’ St Mark’s Basilica 'etc.), the latest idea running into my head at the moment, why not give the Italians the “art workshop” as a unique economic building? Then I still believe that the Romans (understood as both Western Empire and Papal State) would deserve a civilization of their own (they spoke Latin)

nah they are quite bad. Not having Halbs messes you up fairly hard vs civs with decent Cavalier because you can’t get enough Castles up soon enough for it to matter. Hussar is good only if you have tons of farms and are slightly ahead to begin with, which most games you won’t be vs civs like Chinese, Gurjaras, Mayans, Burgundians, Ethiopians etc. and even vs bad or average civs, it’s impossible to have the 60+ farms required to flood Hussar in early Imp, it’s more of a 50 min+ play and Cavalier typically hits you at like 37-40 min mark.

They aren’t bottom 5 type of bad but they are surely bottom 15. Mostly, it feels like your Castle Age power spike isn’t strong enough, with cheaper age up you go up like 1 min earlier at best IF you didn’t take damage in Feudal (and you could vs civs with bonuses here, like Franks, Gurjaras, Mayans etc.). Anyway even if you hit Castle age first, it’s not like Ballistics is GUARANTEED kills on villagers, you still need to deal with walls, mangonels, potential towers etc.

As for faster Feudal for 425f, you can do some cute builds like 18-19 pop Scouts, but these days people are so good at recognizing that, that they will small wall their base, and then your Scouts are useless and you are behind in terms of eco (because you went up earlier with less vills working). I guess vs a bad player or in low elo, 18 pop Scouts can catch you off guard but other civs can do this style even better (Huns, Khmer etc.) so you gotta wonder why you went Italians to do an opening like that.

And let’s say you go vs a civ with sluggish Feudal like Magyars, Magyars only get better if you enter Castle Age on even terms while your civ is getting worse and worse.

I don’t think Italians need a massive buff (or any at all) but something minor like, newly built Monasteries spawn 1 Monk would be nice maybe to give them something in Castle Age. (if too strong/spammable, could be changed to 1st Monastery only spawns 2 Monks)

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Kanembu, Somalis, Kalingas, Jurchen, Tanguts, Khitans, Songhai, Zimbabwe, Hausa, Georgia, Gokturks, Ghana, Serbs, Yoruba, Thai, Wari, Chimu and Uighurs

And if you were to split an umbrella, Malays or Dravidians is a better option.

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I don’t think they are as bad as to say “horrible”. Dravidians and Portuguese won’t have any word left in English dictionary to describe their situation in that case.

To me the exception is them being named as “Sicilians”. Their role in crusade justify their addition but would better as “Normans” imo.

Italians are bullied pretty bad in 1v1 arabia from the statistics i’ve seen, and from personal experience (but im not an amazing player so I focus on the statistics haha)

This post pretty well explains the situation italians find themselves on land, The reason I think a split would be nice is because it’s really hard to buff italian land without buffing their water map play which is already strong, this would give freedom to improve some things. I do like the idea of a free monk with a completed monastary it’s interesting and love any bonuses that encourage monk play

Dravidians are new and I believe they will 100% receive buffs sooner than later, but I agree Portuguese need some help as well they are a fun civ and would like to see them have more potential on land

Portuguese are definitely better than Italians on Arabia due to Halberdier, a better tech tree (stronger UU, Siege Engineers…) and a better combat bonus (all units cost less gold that has interesting niches like for example easier time doing 2x gold comps or 2 Monastery attack/defense).

Even in Feudal, where Italians are basically fully generic, Portuguese can already use their combat bonus to do Archers with only 3 on gold or something like that.

I read before of somebody proposing to give them something in the Monastery, which makes sense to me because it’s the most situational bonus that wouldn’t influence maps like Atacama/Socotra/Baltic (it would buff Arena but I think that’s OK), and on Arabia it’s situational enough to not be relevant vs say full Skirm defense, which would still be decent vs Italians, but it would help them a bit vs Cavalry civs (arguably where they need the most help).

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