Gajapati empire? We just got 4 new (well 3 as one was reworked) Indian Civs and you want one for an “empire” that lasted 100 years? vs the Italian city states that had a pretty large impact on the world?
The Jin empire as well only lasted 100 years.
The Uyghur Khaganate lasted less than 100 years
The Italian city states have a large role in history (like the renaissance) and lasted for quite a long time, the Republic of Genoa had many colonies around the Mediterranean, as well as the republic of Venice.
While I don’t disagree it would be great to see other civs and empires, including some in your list I think the songhai would be a great addition, degrading the Italian City States is pretty disrespectful when they lasted longer and had more impact than some you mention in your list
Yea surviving a fuedal push to get Genoese Xbow is the hardest part for italians haha, and you are right not having halb is pretty painful as well as no siege engineers, having cheaper BBC is nice but when their BBC outranges yours it can get tough to snipe theirs while keeping yours away from their units / dodging their shots
Siege Engineers isn’t a super big deal on Arabia imo, although on Arena it’s definitely more important.
The lack of Halbs is main issue, the eco required for Genoese is so fragile, you need:
a) tons of Castles (so you got access to A LOT of stone unimpeded)
b) tons of wood (each Genoese is 50w iirc)
c) sizable gold late-game (gold in late game could or could not be scarce already depending on how the game went)
At some point, you see that the full Genoese play rests on like 5 different pillars, opponent needs to topple 1 only and whole Castle (pun intended) falls apart. They have so many choices in how to deny the full Genoese, either harass woodlines, or take down Castles, or harass eco… Not to mention that in a theoretical scenario where gold has COMPLETELY run out and it’s even relics for each player, you are basically unable to fend off Hussar spam due to, again, lack of Halberdier.
yea halb is indeed the bigger issue, it is much easier to go arbalest with italians than Genoese Xbow, and without halb to protect them from paladins (pikes can work but no where near as good) it can be annoying.
I also believe the biggest drawback to italians is the lack of early eco bonuses, while you do get discounted age up you still tend to fall behind economically
Other than current 1600+ elo, all the stats that I remember after university discount shows otherwise. Maybe people started to do better with Portuguese recently.
Do you know that the predecessor Eastern Ganga Empire lasted almost 1000 years and the successor Gajapati Empire was the strongest empire in India at its height?
What impact did it have in India? in China? in Africa? in the Middle East?
The Jurchens overthrew the Ming and almost the Song. It is a much bigger impact than any Italian state ever had. In fact the Jin had an army of one million which could’ve wiped out any city state in Italy.
and the successor for additional 200 years
If you are surrounded by small city states of course you will last longer.
Thats not reflected in the stats where italians have a positive win rec vs sicilians and one of the lowest win rates is vs mayans. If italians are struggling its not vs cav
And youre not supposed to turbo into feudal age with italians you go up at the normal time with more food saved in the bank which makes for a much smoother feudal age and then you turbo into castle and imperial age if you need too
Even pros like hera say italians is an underrated civ and that they have everything he needs
“Do you know that the predecessor Eastern Ganga Empire lasted almost 1000 years and the successor Gajapati Empire was the strongest empire in India at its height?” - If predecessors are a factor, the Roman empire would be a factor as well, and the Italian city states played a very large role in events all around europe and outside of Europe as well. Especially the Papal states!
“What impact did it have in India? in China? in Africa? in the Middle East?” -
The republic of Venice had a large impact in the Levant region of the middle east, as well as northern africa with their dominance of trade, with many colonies abroad as well. The Renaissance, which contributed many scientific discoveries that had affects on the whole world, Began in Florence. Genoa had many colonies in the Levant and Northern africa as well these lead to the Venetian-Genoese wars to fight over these territories and their trade.
“And their successor for additional 200 years” If the point is adding a specific empire what does their predecessor / successor have to do with their empire? again I will use the point that the Roman Empire predeceased the Italian City states, yet I wouldn’t use the Achievements of the Romans as that of these city states and vice versa.
“If you are surrounded by small city states of course you will last longer.” - I would disagree, More than just city states waged war in Italy.
I’m not against adding in more Asian and African Civs/empires , but your first response sounded like it was insulting the italian city states when they are very interesting and have many accomplishments
It is a factor because the Eastern Ganga Empire was founded by the SAME people and in MEDIEVAL times, unlike Rome. The likes of you don’t even know how the game works: Civilizations cover different cultures, not different city states and dynasties. Of course when a strong power came, like the Ottoman Empire, Genova lost all of its colonies! Europeans united and took over Levant, not Venice alone. In fact Venice could’ve not done that alone.
Divvying up the Byzantines (Balkan and Caucasus Christians) is, in my opinion, the most important focal point currently. They could easily make the Byzantine’s represent only the Greeks/Romans, while South Slavs, Albanians, Georgians, and Armenians all being made into separate civilizations.
Italy is already well-stratified between Northern and Southern Italians. The individual Northern states aren’t distinct enough historically to warrant any further specification.
Actually both dynasties used the title “Gajapatis” to describe themselves", one is the Ganga Dynasty while the other one is the Suryavanshi Dynasty. It’s just that in popular media we call one Eastern Ganga Empire (because there was one Ganga Dynasty in Karnataka as well, whether related or not is debated), and we call the other one as Gajapati Empire
Talking of the Classical Period there was also the Mahameghavahana Empire (Maha=Great, Megha=Thunder Vahana =Vehicle fancy name) ruled by the Jain Ruler Kharavela. He revenged the Kalinga War with Magadha Mauryans.
Before that in 3rd century BC when Mauryans attacked, Kalinga used to be a Sangha (republic).
Kalinga as a political entity existed from atleast 5th century BC mentioned by Buddha’s visit to the port of Toshali.
To compare, here’s my question using the vacuum we set up of Ganga vs Italian city states: What do these civs offer the game as a whole.
Well I can tell you before anything else, Ganga offers access to the rare Elephant units so there’s that. I give you a chance to pretend to have a good reason these Italian cities should take center stage. Give us a laugh!
rare elephant units like the siege elephant? or the battle elephant? or the elephant archer? or the war elephant? or the ballista elephant?
My point is we just received 4 (or 3 if you count the Indians rework as the same civ) new Indian civs I don’t see why making more Indian civs would be more relevant than to add than to split/rework a Civ that was released in 2013 that needs some balancing done on land (imo) anyways. There are many potential ideas for the Italian city states to offer something interesting to the game, and as I said I’m not opposed to new African and Asian civs either.
There are like 10 South Asian kingdoms/empires that are not in game holding more importance than any Italian city state. 10 more in Africa, 20 more in other parts of Asia. There are many even in Europe.
I don’t mean to be rude, but your knowledge of history seems quite limited and Eurocentric. You’re incorrect to degrade the Jin, Uyghur and Gajapati empires in this way.
Firstly, length of existence does not equate to importance. The Mongol Empire lasted only 150 years. It’s existence was the single most impactful thing in the medieval world.
Secondly, a people can have other powerful dynasties/kingdoms existing outside of the ones you’re focusing on. The Mongols is a great example. Yes, the Mongol Empire was the medieval highpoint of the Mongol people, but they also went on to create other powerful entities, and they existed before their empire was a thing as well. Likewise, the Odia people who created the Gajapati Empire ruled over the Eastern Ganga Dynasty’s territories for hundreds of years beforehand. The Jurchen existed before the Jin Empire and after it as well. They’re very important. They went on the form the Qing Dynasty.
Thirdly, Asia is just more significant than Europe is a medieval context. It held the overwhelming majority of people, wealth z military might and technological advancement during this time. By mere virtue of existing in Asia, the Odia, Jurchen and Uyghur peoples are far more significant than individual Italian city states.
This is not to say that the northern Italian city states weren’t important. They were, which is why they’re already represented in the game as the Italians. But individually they should by no means be in the game whilst genuine empires are still excluded.
How about this then if you aren’t understanding. We still only have 3 Eagle civs. This isn’t a slight on you. Most people seem to not want the amount of civs with access to this line to be very high for some reason.
fancy name) ruled by the Jain Ruler Kharavela. He revenged the Kalinga War with Magadha Mauryans.