Ideas for unused UTs

Hi all,
just curious on what people think on some UTs that are almost never used, or in some cases limited to specific settings. Some examples:

  • huns
  • celts

Other UTs are water only:

  • Koreans
  • Portuguese
  • Malay
  • Byzantines

Other UTs are useful but limited in certain circumstances or with an effect that immediately disappears:

  • Vietnamese (instant use)
  • cumans (once the mercenaries are gone, the tech disappears)
  • Italians (useful in TGs only)

Do you think that some of these techs (or maybe some others that I forgot) should need a bit of rework to make the game more interesting while keeping it balanced?


Madrasah : Monks return 66 gold instead of just 33 gold. Even after this Saracens my not go for Monks , but still the easiest way of buffing is to increase the effect.

Orthodoxy : Monks +3/+3 armor and Monasteries work 2x faster

Bagains : Ridiculously overpriced at 900F 450G. Should be down to 700F 200G, considering no champions.

Stronghold : Towers and Castles fire 33% faster, considering Celts dont get Bracer, which nullifies the effectiveness of just +25%.

Bearded Axe : Cost -200F (down to 200F, 400G), This tech is rarely worth it, only in Post-Imp. E.TA not as viable as they could be

Zealotry : Cost down by another -100G (down to 750F 600G)

Cornivian Army : Cost -100G (down to 200F 200G) , currently needs >35 Huszars to be made just to pay for itself, not counting the lost Castle Time.

Maghrabi Camels : Cost -200F (down to 500F, 300G) as healing is slow and effect is weak on higher HP units(less % healed per second) and on units that have many armor classes.

Thalassocracy : Cost -100G (down to 300F 200G). Nerfed to the ground, so much that now never seen

Royal Heirs : Cost -200G (down to 300F 100G). Lowers the Shotel TT from 8 to 4 seconds, which is a bummer of an effect. Considering Shotels themselves are overpriced in gold.

Artillery : 500G 450S Price?? That’s more than a castle and a half for just +2 range. Stone price is really hurting the underpowered Turks here, should be 500G 200S.

Shinkichon : Costs more then 5 Siege Onagers. Effect was HALVED with no reduction in price. It is about time the price dropped by 200G to 800W 300G. Underwhelming-on-land Koreans are hurt by the price point for just 1 more range again, like the Turks.

Torsion Engines : This tech is prohibitively costly. It is hardly seen in competitive play.
Cost down by -300W, -100G to 700W 500G. Can you imagine +0.5 radius for Onagers currently costs 1000W 600G???

Timurid Siegecraft : For god’s sake buff the Flaming Camels to be useful rather than a April Fools meme. Ugghhh.
April is over, and so is April Fool’s day. Make them useful now, for the Tatars, to be used in Post Imp and in DM.

Paper Money : LOL to this tech. It could have a market related effect.

This, in my opinion, is the only tech that need a complete rework, since wonders are almost never used.

Whats is the problem with stronghold, it’s not powerful but it’s not either useless, it is cheap and it makes your castle drop more efficient.

Well, some bonus too are water only, and it’s not a bad thing, some of those are even strong.

Yes but it’s researched fast and it give you a huge boost to you and your ally, for example in a team game it can cover the gold cost of the paladin upgrade for your ally instantly. While also being powerful for 1v1 with viets good trash.

Italians have other problems, this tech is fantastic, it make your trade the best in the game, easier to start (you save a lot of resources, mainly wood and gold, which are needed for your archers) and a the same time it make you a lot less sensible to trade-raids, since you lose less resources and spend less to replace your trade.

On this one I agree too, it could be that after a minute that the last of your kipchaks have died, you can re-train them. Still, it’s a useful bonus even on 1v1 (in case you want a small raiding party but you don’t want to invest in elite upgrade).

It make your FU 2HS on the level of castle age TK, I think it’s fine.

Maybe 66% it’s too much, but it could be 40%/50%, since if you are careful you don’t need it.

ETA are good, they trash any trash unit.

Yeah but you can made a lot more than 35 MH, plus it’s the most powerful trash unit.

8 second is the lowest TT for a UU, 4s would be almost in the level of aegis :rofl:

They transform your onagers into M.O.A.B., so they have to be expensive.

Still pretty sure that it was only a april fools joke.

No Shinkichon, Artillery and Torsion Engines are overpriced still, for their effect. It is always better to go for 5 more SO’s than for +1 range, and 2 more castles than for +2 range on BBC

And that’s what the pros do with these civs in Imp, those techs are only used in non-serious games. For uploading on youtube.

I know it’s a in game rule but Madrasah should be able to research from monasteries. Forcing the player to build a castle for monk rush is not very reasonable imo.

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I understand, that is another reason the UT is broken.
But, for now, I think you understand that the best way to fix this crap would be to double its effect
we may see Imperial monks from Saracens with this, though still unlikely, even with 66 return

Maybe 66% it’s too much, but it could be 40%/50%, since if you are careful you don’t need it.

The Literal idea of the tech is for the Saracens to stop being careful with their Monks and convert like crazy, considering they get FU monks.

8 second is the lowest TT for a UU, 4s would be almost in the level of aegis :rofl:

And yet we never see shotels or this tech in serious games with Ethiopians
This tells us something about the state of the Shotels and this UT

I will add here two monk-realted unique techs:

  • Slavs (Orthodoxy)
  • Saracens (Madrasah)

And we discuss few options allready in few places on this forum. I have few propositions:

  • For Huns, Atheism will work like counter-relic. Will allow player to steal part of enemy gold incom from Relics.
  • For Celts, Stronghold, I have few ideas. One is to speed up TT of some units a bit (maybe +10% on Barracks units), second is to give them “paid Teuton Bonus” - doubled the garrison space on buildings.
  • For Koreans, this is tricky. My idea is with few other changes.
    First, make their Wood Discount larger to 20%
    Second, Remove Shipwright
    Third, give Panokseon effect of speeding up Warships creation (but not TS). Effect will be 25% lower TT. Basicly cheaper, weaker, earlier Shipwright.
  • For Portuguese, tech is fine. Maybe just add +1 PA to the effect.
  • For Malay, tech is fine.
  • For Byz, Greek Fire - Lets give this tech effect: Castles, Towers and Trebuchets deal additional damage to the siege. 13% of base damage.
  • For Viets, Paper Money - My idea is: this tech can increase price of seling wood in the market.
  • For Italians, Tech is fine.
  • For Cumans, IDK
  • For Slavs, Orthodoxy can give monks additional monk armour +6.
  • For Saracens, just let this tech simply decrease monk price, -20%

I also think the Franks and Persians should their techs age-switch. Kamandaran is more late game Tech, and Chivalry has too good effect for Castle Age.

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No way this wouldnt be op

I’d rather increase the armor to +4/+4

It’s good right now.

I think that this tech is already pretty good.

I agree with this

This tech didn’t have any problems why you want it to be changed?

Disagree, can be really strong on camel archers

Its only rarely seen because water maps are very rarely played and even on water maps vikings and italians dominate. When playing malays on water this tech is actally pretty strong, doesn’t need a buff.

-50% training time is a pretty big deal, I wouldn’t make the tech more cheap.

This tech really needs some buff, imo the stone cost should be removed.

No way this tech needs a nerf, saying that as a player who plays with koreans a lot (they’re in my top 5 played civs I think

Yes I can, and it’s quite reasonable.

Flaming camels need a buff, agree on that.

Srsly I hate when people don’t like this tech. It is really awesome and it is also used pretty commonly since DE buff. I’ve recently seen it being researched yesterday in a BoA match.

You don’t have to treat every game like it’s a tournament, some of us just want to have fun.
Also why you refer always to what pros do in tournaments and what they upload in you tube? I mean, it’s a game for everyone, not just them.

Keep in mind, that Bulgarians have militia upgrades free. Even if we add the cost of Bagains, they still pay less than other Civs for theirs Champs.Bulgarians also have all needet upgrades on Militia in one Tech besides Blacksmith.

Maybe change stone cost to wood cost (900W) will be good.

Its the same cost what Logistica have. And really close to Druzhina.

Agree. I like @Bzhydack proposal.

Well… I have probably researched this tech once. I do not see a great advantage, that is why I am asking. I do not see a great advantage in doing that with celts…

This is a very good idea. I reccomend people to check the explanation you posted on the reason why 13% is the right number.

I like this idea a lot. Basically after some minutes you can retrain them (ofc if you currently have less than 10).

The same mechanics could be applied to condos (basically you have 10 condos you can train for free, maybe in the castle, paying for the extra ones in the barracks)

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Well, yes but it’s cheap, and there are a lot of tech which aren’t that useful or viable for all games, like pavise, hill fort, nomads… they have little but decent effects.
Stronghold isn’t powerful, but it’s not bad either.

I meant after all 10 have died, so that it’s not a spam, and you still have to be careful to use your units since reinforcements aren’t immediate.

10 condos aren’t the same thing as 1p kipchaks.
10 kipchaks are fast, with a range and area attack and a fantastic micro, they can harass trade and vills, and escape before you can kill them.
Condos don’t have this possibility, 10, even 20 of them, would just died before doing any real damage.
Condos meccanic is fine, they are trained at a common building with being locked behind an upgrade, their stats are a bit weak, and they could use a minor buff, but overall aren’t a bad unit.

I was meaning as additional effect. Say you have 10 free with the same mechanics of cumans, plus you can do as it is now

But 10 condos, even if for free, it isn’t a big deal. It would be more useful to decrease their costs, or buff their stats but again, it’s an late castle-early imp units that you get for free without upgrades.

Its problem is that people see them as an anti-gunpowder, while they could have more uses.

Saracens go for monks but not Madrasah since the strat involves building a castle and smush strat is opposite of that. But yeah current 33 return is just bs

600F, 400G. Comparable to champ upgrade

It is viable everytime they go for TAs. I think the Elite upgrade could see some reduction, 900f, 550g?

Its 30 Huszars and 30 is normal in most 1v1 situations so I don’t see whats the problem

pretty cheap techs considering how good they’re for camel archers and docks

that or 450 food instead of stone

nah its good enough that you can skip on SO upgrade for a while and also faster than SO upgrade

I say -100g cost since the tech isn’t as good as Warwolf or kataparuto

400f 300w and 30s research time

It’s one of the better tech for 1v1, why change it?

I think parthnan is right on this one. Currently It takes three monks (+1 gold) to die for the 100g of the tech to pay off in the first place and 3 monks (+1 gold) to die to pay for 1 monk. No idea why would it be broken since the strat itself involves monks dying. I think 66 gold back or cheaper monks is the way to go to fix this tech

This is pretty good and won’t be broken too considering it only applies in imperial and the tech is quite expensive itself

sounds good to me

I was thinking add. effect of +1 range for TS or improve it to 20% faster moving TS

I can’t say for Koreans and Ethiopians since they’re hardly seen in pro play and the games never get to SO play but the artillery comment is wrong. Sure the tech is expensive but +2 range for BBC and BBT is vital for Turks. Its researched everytime. Also 450s can’t pay for 1 castle, let alone 2

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Bagains cost 900F 450G, Champion upgrade cost 750F 350G. Its just 150F 100G more. And For Bulgarians is the only tech they need upgrade for Militia-line (not counting Blacksmith or Barracks techs.). Cost of all Militia-line upgrades from Militia to Champ is 1350F 560G, so overall Bulgarians save 450F and 110G plus time. All Militia-line upgrades take 260 sec, Bagains - only 40sec.
And Bulgarian 2HS is as good as Viking Champion (in meele), witch is more expensive to upgrade and harder to transition to.

Yeah, a monk alive is more woth than even its full gold price.

You make 10 monks, enemy makes an army for the same price. Assuming you have smaller skills you manage to convert half of their army, while he kills your monks. The army you converted can fight off with the army you didn’t convert, and nearly all units die. Now each monk for you only costed 33 gold, it is not even close that the enemy could make a cost effective trade. In any player’s hand who has small conversion skills this tech would be very strong and for experienced players this would be far more than op. Even if the enemy only comes with hussars or eagles and the saracen player didn’t put any counter in front of the monks, he still wouldn’t be able to take a cost effective trade. The saracen player could basicly spam the monks, yes all monks die eventually but the army you convert is way bigger than the army remaining for the enemy. And this can snowball very fast, no way enemy can afford heresy or faith if he even manages to reach imperial somehow.
The new meta would be 3/4 monastery in castle age and then just rush the enemy with the army you convert. (There is already a strategy named saracen monks rush, what would happen after this buff?) You might even need a siege workshop if the enemy doesn’t want to fight but that basicly forces him to engage which definitely favours the saracen player.