Slavs is certainly not unbalanced. Currently they have 49%-50% W/R in Arabia in all elo level. They are a bit weaker in Arena as they have around 40% W/R in most elo.
My personal opinion is ever since Khmer got their farm bonus, Slavs became boring. Recent UT change was very positive but still it doesn’t look unique enough to me. They are still just another knight spam civ until late Castle Age when they may switch to Boyar with Detinets researched or just stay on knight. The problem is there are a lot of civs that can do knight spam better - Franks, Teutons, Sicilians, Berbers, Burgundians, Poles, Lithuanians and all of them have some bonus for knight line. Slavs and Khmer are also knight spamming civ but they got no bonus for knights. And Khmer farm bonus is just stronger as it provides more flexibility.
A very straight forward approach is just buff their farm bonus to 15%. However that means Boyar will not have any play. Everyone will just stay on knight as they used to be before Boyar got buff. So my proposal is remove BL in return and add the extra HP to Boyar.
Supplies is free → Barracks & Monastery cost -75 wood.
Bloodlines is removed from the tech tree.
Thumb Ring is added to tech tree.
Standard & Elite Boyar HP increased 100 & 130 → 125 & 150 respectively. ( I even buffed Castle age version by 5HP)
Farmers work 10% faster → Farmers work15% faster. (I’m not sure about this one)
I hope this won’t nerf their late game Hussar raid too much.
Edit : My point is Slavs doesn’t feel unique to me. They are the least unique civ to me. Sometimes they feel like mounted version of Teutons, sometimes modified version of Celts, sometimes weaker version of Khmer and Poles, and sometimes slower version of Bulgarians.
This one is doubtful. It makes the Slavs weak when the Knights are needed at the time Castles are not ready. I guess the time is usually from the Castle Age to early Imperial Age.
For achieve your purpose, I think removing the Plate Barding Armor is better than removing the Bloodlines. Then, the Elite Boyars gain more armor.
If theres anything that keeps Slav boring its their farming bonus. Its an slow bonus to get going, and really the only bonus the Slavs use. It doesnt give them an specially unique gameplay nor even new strategies either. And nerfing their cav will just make them not very fun to play unless the eco bonus is even higher (lets say 20%), since compared to civs like Celts the Slavs will still be way slower to get going, they will still have a weaker infantry for most of the game and their siege will we weaker
What we need to do is make them use their siege more. I think they need to have even cheaper siege.
Tbh if I could I would make Slavs a cav archer or gunpowder civ since rn they are too close to Bulgarians but thats not going to happen
Don’t buff the farm bonus because that’s what made Slavs OP before DE, and we don’t need their cavalry nerfed, just give them monasteries costing -75 wood, and buff the siege workshop discount from 15% to 20%, they might be not that strong on arabia but on arena they will be better tjan before.
I think we could even give them 25% cheaper siege. Its really their only interesting bonus (although if the discount is 25% they probably should get cheaper monasteries)
Perhaps introducing Streltsy as UU for them could be considered?
After Chemistry is researched, it can be trained at Archery Ranges in the Imperial Age, replacing the generic Hand Cannoneer (that they do not have so far).
Let’s dream. Perhaps compared to HC, it could cost more food and less gold; in addition, although the attack power is relatively low, its iconic axe can be used as a support and a protective weapon, so it could has better accuracy, faster rate of fire and higher melee armor.
Then, change the bonus of free Supplies into allowing Supplies affect the UUs (Boyars and Streltsy).
Why don’t you explain why Boyar has to take over the game “right away” in Castle Age? In my opinion, weakening the Knights in the Castle age is very likely weakening the entire civilization and does nothing to make Boyar more likely to be used. On the other hand, weakening the Knights in the Imperial Age may help encourage the player to switch to Boyars more actively as time goes by.
Also, by removing the Bloodlines and giving the Thumb Ring at the same time, are you trying to get the player to ditch Cavalry for Archers before the Imperial Age?
It’s the high gold cost, not the food cost, that really limits Boyar effectively.
I personally don’t mind making the initial cost of Boyar more expensive if needed, so that it can get a decent and acceptable price after being affected by Supplies. Even without Supplies affecting Boyar, being able to affect Streltsy (if introduced) is enough to make this bonus more interesting than just free Supplies.
In addition to this, I would change:
“Siege workshop units cost -15%” to “Siege units cost -20%” so that trebs are included in this bonus. No one has cheap trebs and Slavs don’t get BBC so saving some resources on trebs would be a nice bonus for late game.
Removing one civ from the pool of knight spam civ as I think we have far too many.
I think this one will weakening the civ more. Switching is hard. And I strongly believe Castle Age Boyar being weaker than knight against pierced attack (same HP and PA but less speed) holding them back. Also late game hussar will be to bad.
They are infantry and siege civ with cavalry and monk support. However in reality they are just a straight knight civ. And I don’t like that. They still have Boyar and I believe Boyar should be their cavalry option for the better all the time.
Also just bcz they have TR and xbow doesn’t mean they are an archer civ. Hindustanis, Huns, Turks, Tatars and Gurjaras are also archer civ in that case. (I’m not counting Aztecs) All civs but Celts have either BL or TR or a compensation. If BL is removed, you have to come up with a bonus to compensate or add TR. Ironically Slavs is somewhat similar to Celts as well. Having TR will be a big distinction. And I edited my OP to fit more “Infantry & siege” identity with monk+cav support as they are supposed to be.
Thats not the only way to see it. Celts can use their bonus since practically the start of the game, Slavs have to wait. Celts also have a great feudal archer play while Slavs do not. And farms in general are just slow. They pay off well but I think faster working lumberjacks is an stronger bonus for most of the game because lumberjacks are more productive
It doesnt matter what is their strat, the bonus is still boring lol. Theres plenty of knight civs which are fun, even the very similar Bulgarians are more fun than Slavs imo
Bulgarians cav archers arent very good. They are better than Spanish cav archers but not massively better
Their armies are nothing alike and Poles dont even have hand canoneer
Also Poles should probably lose bombard cannon anyway
Almost no one builds Castles mid-game just for melee cavalry UU. Losing Bloodlines means that cavalry is no longer a competitive option aside from the opportunity to use Boyar and Hussar in the Imperial Age. They would either use Monk Siege rush or Archers → Crossbowmen, like a classic flank civ in a team game. After hitting the Imperial Age, apart from the awkward switch to Boyar (as the Castles need built and the cavalry techs haven’t been researched yet), only the expensive Halberdier Siege rush is the most effective strategy. Even with the cheaper Monastery and siege weapon unit (btw I accept these changes), I still think losing useful cavalry in the mid game is an overkill.
Easier than removing bloodlines and rendering cavalry useless.
Because the strong period of this unit should have been the Imperial Age, just like most of melee cavalry UU. Losing the Knight as an option doesn’t mean Boyar becomes viable before Imperial. Even if you compensate for its health, it’s still not worth using in the Castle Age.
They have an iconic farming bonus, and you even want to buff it.
With plenty of food to spawn lots of Hussar in the Imperial Age, losing the Plate Barding Armor is acceptable.
Which is why I want to remove the “knight civ” tag.
True, With Khmer and Poles, this bonus is not really interesting.
Usable. Lacking only last archer armor which is better than Hindustanis.
Both are knight spammer. Poles have way more tricks on their sleeves. Slavs is more straightforward.
Yeah. Maybe adding HC is an option for Slavs.
IMO 15% faster farming will compensate much of it.
Okay. Thanks.
Fair enough.
Let’s start with one step at a time then. Free supplies changed to cheaper rax and monastery.
Why though?
I don’t think so. All cav UU except Boyar, Keshik (and Maybe Konnik) is more or less specialized than multi purpose knight. And Castle Age Boyar is one of the most similar unit to knight along with Konnik.
I buffed its health in Castle age, not just compensation. Also you’re saving the resource of Bloodlines which is 2 extra Boyar. Needing to build a castle is still a big obstacle though.
Losing last armor is bigger nerf than losing BL in that situation btw.
This does not mean that more Castles can be built earlier. Usually, this kind of generic economic bonus is more beneficial to the strategies of generic units mostly. If this is really so effective and has such a big impact, I believe it would cause people to still willing to spawn a large number of no-Bloodlines Knights to overwhelm the opponent. Or, more likely, use Monk Siege or Archers, and hit the Imperial Age earlier to start the Halberdier Siege earlier.
Elite Boyar is stronger than Cavalier, like their own kind of Paladin, and the player has more opportunity to build Castles for spawning Boyars in the Imperial Age. It is pretty suitable to take over the game after Cavalier. If Cavalier get weaker, the switching would be earlier in a decent pace.
So what? Konnik can be trained at Kreposts, but how many people would gather 650 stone for this to build a Castle when hitting the Castle Age? People would end up using Monk Siege or Crossbowmen instead of waiting for Boyar, so almost nothing changed to the usage of Boyar.
When the player can use Boyar, this cost is no longer the point.
Yes I have no objection to this but my original description remains the same. Losing last armor is an acceptable nerf.
I think even saying this is a bit of an oversimplification considering how diferent Polish and Slavic heavy cavalry is. But lets just compare the armies for a minute. Poles have cheap knights and Winged hussars without last armor, Slavs have fully upgraded generic hussar and cavalier as well as Boyars. Poles have arbs and lack halbs but have Obuch, Slavs have barracks unit with druzhina. Poles have mediocre siege, Slavs have good siege. Its quite diferent
Polish gunpowder isnt that game defining and Poles prob need to losebombard cannons anyway to nerf them on Arena.
Hindustani cav archers arent really that important for the civ anymore (and they use them far more than Bulgarians) and Bulgarians lack xbows so their transition to cav archersis very awkward
Saying that cav archers would make them more like Bulgarians seems like an stretch. Tbh they are already too similar but focusing on Slavic cav archers would be a diference for sure.
But thats the problem, you remove that without making the civ any less bland to play with. You just made them lessmeta but still boring because the problem isnt with their knights.
The bonus was never that interesting to begin with since its just not a very dinamic bonus. It doesnt give them a unique playstyle nor unique strats, its not really a powerspike and its very slow to get going so it makes Slavic early game extremely boring. The bonus “Villagers work 5% faster” while blander in theory its more fun because it would make the early game more dynamic.
15% just does not feel significant compared to the other siege bonuses that other civs get. 15% makes it a bit smoother to afford things, but with the chaos of everything else that happens in castle age I don’t notice it. 20% also leads to nice round numbers in siege unit costs, which I prefer.
Also, I think the lack of bloodlines is more significant to Slavs than getting thumb ring as it affects their full feudal play, and the compensation does not come until mid-late castle age when they either get thumb ring or build a castle.
Another buff is put the Boyar cost at 80f 60g, by the time you get a castle and detinets to go Boyars, the 80g cost start to hurt you, that and +10HP to elite Boyar.