If it results that Armenians actually need to get buffed, I hope it's their heavy cavalry what gets better

P.armor sure is important but 48 hp more than compensates for 2 p.armor in many situations. Like while fighting gunpowder or trying to take out trebs under enemy castles with some halbs or camels around etc. In those situations 48 hp might be quite a lot.
And like the arguments you’ve given about Burgundians, its fine if this was a cavalry civ but it doesn’t fit since Armenians are not a cavalry civ. This bonus could be given if they were redesigned to be a cavalry+infantry civ. Like remove navy default bonus, remove arbalester upgrade, remove ring archer armor, move warrior priest with buffed stats as castle unit and then include cavalier into this. That would be fine. But for the current tech tree, strong stable units is broken. The other cavalry civs either have poor ranged units, a uu thats also a cavalry or too niche etc. For Mongols, the bonus is broken on lancers as well.

Even if you have a % bonus applied through UT, its applied over the base stats and not on top of other in-game upgrades.

halbs on the way to imp and the churches for defense? And I think the civ might have a special build different from other infantry civs due to their ability to get imperial units in castle age. Like Poles, this might need to be figured out a bit.

Btw, I’m not opposed to buffing the civ. Just feel like they need to be explored more for a month or two to know the right buffs.

Celts aren’t a “cavakry” civ either. Still with the Paladin upgrade they already get something comparable to the proposed HP-Increased Armenien Cavalier: +1/+1 PA, +2 ark, -.1 ROF and -36 HP.

And civ like Mongols als get bonusses to cav and siege without the tags, damn mongol SL and SO are even considered the best in the game…

So what you are even talking about?

Where is a will, there is a way. I intentiallany made it stacking with bloodlines and sanctity. Just accept that’s the design. And I’m pretty sure it’s not complicated to implement at all.

That’s a joke no? How does this help at all when you’re castle dropped and Trebs are on the way?

A lot of people (including myself) already proposed this kind of idea. And I still like it. Imo it should affect all kind of foot unit - meaning also archers, skirms, HC … That way we also affect the infantry counters that otherwise might have issues keeping up with the sheer mass of Infnatry that might come their way (Goth spam greets).

I’m not so sure in practice. Thing is massed archers truly stack damage in numbers in a way that infantry just doesn’t, made worse by pathing.
Heavy Cavalry already dominates in all stages of the game, fact is you still need a 3/5 ratio of Halbs to Paladins/good Cavaliers to actually counter them. In team-games where pop stays stacked at 200/200 until one team loses or game transitions to trash wars means Heavy-Cav is go to option 9/10 games for teams or low ELO.

Fair enough. Was just talking from being a naval civ standpoint but ok the Celt paladin is a fair comparison. Maybe not broken for a slow civ. And sure the upgrade cost could be adjusted if needed.

Nah that’s not actually possible to implement as a % because that’s how the game works. Because otherwise lets say Armenian player doesn’t do bloodlines and gets UT right away. That will create a confusion. You’d have to split it differently per unit line. But anyways I don’t think that’s necessary, 104 hp on light cav and 188 hp on cavalier are quite solid as a buff.

Not a versatile defense but still something. Obviously if you’re castle dropped, you need to get into a treb war. But like if you’re getting raided by light cavs and such units, you can just build a couple of more churches and garrison vills, especially on far woodlines. And if you’re getting raided by expensive cavalry, make a few monks out of them to convert. Not like a crazy defense but I guess something useful.

A good point about archers there.

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If that’s so complicated… there would also just be the way to assume that when you get that tech you usually already have sanctity and bloodlines researched for these units. So it could be handled like the Mongols Bonus but already with giving the increase as if these techs are researched even if they weren’t.
It’s important to me, cause for balance reasons I think the extra 6 and 8 HP are quite important for the units to make them competitive. Warrior Priests fall off in the lategame due to their high gold cost and being countered by light cav. ANd also their Cavakry missing the last armor need that little bit more from bloodlines to justify the inconvenience of gettig an imp UT . If they don’t they would be below average with an imp UT which doen’t really encourage going for that play even in the first place.

Let’s don’t forget this thread is about buffing their Heavy Cav, that’s what I tried to accomplish Though ofc I have to admit also buffing their light cav, but I think this is just necessary when they have that terrible lategame Siege. They need good light cav to at least have the Raiding potential to win stale games.

Speaking of which.

An idealised old concept that just doesn’t work anymore. Even at mid level people have just become too good staying active with their cavalry. Many defensive shots miss cause of constant stop and gos, but especially cause you can jsut run through garrisoned towns you can manage to idle entire ecos with even just a small raiding party when there aren’t the counters there to defend against the raids. Being too far expanded isn’t jelpful at all cause it becomes a macro nihtmare against skilled opponents when you try to save your eco at the expansions. It’s often even the best move to let them just die there as - another meta change - you often go with 4,5,6 TCs in the super lategame and you can just replace the expanded vills. In the meantime you get pop space to get the right military units out to deal with the enemy army.

TCs, Towers, Churches just don’t provide that much protection at that stage anymore. Either you have Castles that do the heavy lifting or you need the counter units to deal with it. Part of it is ofc the absurd amount of idle time you get when you are forced to garrison your enire eco just to deal with like 10-20 Hussar running through your base.

That’s why on different occasions I already stated that for my taste these defences kinda need some buffs. And imo it becomes appearant for most that the fortified churches - praised as broken cause they don’t need stone - just can’t deliver what they were expected to. They are for sure not useless, but expecting from them to clean all raids coming in… nah, you will just get idled and then die cause you’ll run out of stock. You still need to defend like every other civ with armenians and georgians and whilst the churches help cause you can just have more garrison space for your main eco - you still need something else to clean the raids up.
At least that’s how it works atm.

BTW do you know that there is more and more tendency to make units that give positive value when being under defensive fire? There are units like Paladin which do that by just standing under TC fire cause the caused idle Time is higher than it needs to produce them. We also recently have added some new units that do this like the Scilian Cavaliers or even Serjeants. (mayan eagles also do this)
Then we have the nextr classes of units which aren’t quite there yet. Eagles, Hussar and Skirms. They need to stay a bit active to get that value. But it’s a one-sided adjustment. When you manage to stay active enough with them, garrisoned vills just won’t be enough to deal with them and they will drain the opponent out of res because of the idle time caused.
We’re often talking about Raids, but sometimes and even from a sheer mathematical perspective the caused idle time just to kill the units with the garrisoned vills is enough with these units to kill.

I agree on this ##### but I think the most direct and elegant way is to just let them have plate barding armor.
Your proposal for fereters is not bad, but it kind of makes the UT a catch-all, no-brainer to get, as you’re buffing both your infantry and cavalry at once. With plate barding you have to choose one of two paths, knowing that by picking one, you’re delaying the other one. You know, like having some risk involved.

The censured word is “take”


Strongest military:v , + UU. And monasppa of Georgia+ Savar of Persia

If you gave me a choice between the Monaspa and Savar, I would go for the former while knowing it is a Castle unit.

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Monaspa is wayy better in melee (almost same as good as Leitis) while Savar is better vs ranged and raiding.

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I understand you want to buff and make them usable despite the lack of plate barding armor. And I think +48 hp and +24 hp is already very powerful. And you could just rather justify giving plate barding armor itself if you definitely want to buff the cavalry.

I think the thread is trying to reason if they need to be buffed through cavalry. Even though high hp cavalry seems interesting as a UT, I think more realistically they’d need a buff to economy. Many civs have subpar cavalry but aren’t seen as weak or problematic because of having the eco lead. This civ should probably be buffed in that direction imo.

I get that they’re not broken. I’ve mentioned it myself elsewhere. And obviously they’re not going to be a Krepost or a castle and kill raiding units. Usually when you’re raided, you pull your army to clean the raiding army or move your vills all the way back to some defense. In such cases the church could be a place for villagers to garrison till your units arrive. That way you can minimize the losses taken. I see it like a different version of the Khmer house bonus. Its not a complete zero, imo.

I mean they too strong , and cheap if comparison with nomal Paladin or Letis and monaspa create faster with only 11s -_- cheaper 45 gold :rofl::rofl::rofl:, savar with Paladin too

It depends when it applies honestly.

Look at carry capacity civ bonuses. Unless this was changed, youd have it where the Aztec carry capacity would apply after carry techs. But if starting before them it will be included in the percentage calculation.

Likewise this bonus is counted for at the time of research so if you research bloodlines first it will apply first. However if starting post imp it is very possible this tech might be counted for afterwards

Either way this is too much for too many units. Even if some cav end up 8 HP behind

Omg the savings for the halberdier upgrade is going to be wild, Imean you’re saving 600 gold

who would expected that the cheaper halb upgrade immediately gets that kind of reaction 11

However; I actually think it would make more sense for Armenians when they would get back a fixed food amount after each Barracks tech researched. Like how Spanish get it for every tech, but only for Barracks techs.
It could be somewhere between 50 and 100 F for each Barracks tech researched.

WTF are you talking about, is half price, so the upgrade is 150f 300g.

I feel like the no gold barracks tech bonus for a future civ that also has Eagles so it can really really shine!

Remember to save bonuses for future content yall

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What if Fereters affect knight line as well? Does it hurt the identity the devs seem to want them to have on infantry?
We’re talking about 170 HP, 2+2/2+2 armor cavaliers. Can be a nice support option for dealing with siege.

The meaning of Fereters doesn’t have anything to do with infantry per se anyways.

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It’s a nice nod to Armenians proficency at cavalry, but it still somehow feels wrong if they don’t get plate barding. They would be strong, yes, but lacking that tech keeps whispering “not full upgraded” on my ear.

If this is what I get, I wouldn’t complain. It’s still more than what I expect.


It was always included in the percentage calculation, meaning +3 or +5 before applies first. Then wheelbarrow adds 25% over the +3

This is a cool idea. It would be a great buff if its something like 60 or 70f and also fits the early upgrade availability well.

45 gold is not cheap for the stats it has. Coustillier and Leitis are much better units costing just a little bit extra, Keshiks are even cheaper. 11s creation time seems is about 2 or 3 seconds too low but for 75 base hp, unit should be produced fast for balance. And imo, the civ needs that unit to be very strong. Even with the building damage bug, Georgians have below average winrates.

I think he’s replying based on this suggestion of yours.

Breaking my “No Balance Change Proposal” November.

I can fix Armenians with just 1 change.
“Galley line fires 1 extra projectile” → “Galley line and Archer line fire 1 extra projectile starting from Castle Age.”