I’m talking about the civ bonus “TCs spawn 2 sheep upon reaching Feudal Age” that Tatars used to have for a short while. This bonus will have a good synergy with Jurchens “Animals don’t decay” civ bonus.
Since Jurchens is a bit underperforming, if they gets a buff, I’ll highly recommend this bonus to be back. Maybe the bonus can be stronger - Get 3 sheep when you reach Feudal or can stay as 2 sheep but can get them every time you reach the next age.
Instead… what if we got rid of the 3 kingdoms and got back some of their bonuses? Like:
would be fine for Jurchens no?
EDIT. And if people think they have too many bonuses, they can always remove Siege Engineer aviable in Castle age.
I always thought they should get some kind of fishing buff. I believe historically they are a hunting/fishing civ
Although it feels a bit similar to the current Tatars’ bonus, I think this would be good since it would allow them to delay farming longer. Not sure how historical that is. Wikipedia says the Yeren Jurchens were pig farmers, so maybe make it pigs? (I admit I only briefly skimmed the Wikipedia page.)
Generally I think they either need an improvement to their early game economy or a power spike in Castle Age. I’d be tempted to extend their tech discounts to include ballistics, to help them get grenadiers going earlier.
Oh… I used to hope that Bulgarians would get a new bonus to receive free pigs. Ivaylo himself was a swineherd, which also has mentined and emphasized in his campaign, and the pig was indeed introduced to the game together with his campaign.
I do think the Jurchens should have a water bonus. Not necessarily a fishing bonus, but maybe a bonus to help them be more aggressive in the early game on water maps. They are indeed often considered to be a fishing and hunting people, and they also had a history of piracy.
Thing is 90% maps don’t have shore fish. So the buff will be almost meaningless.
Same as above. Maybe a bit more useful.
They should have a more aggressive Castle Age anyway. I’ve always advocated for moving the Iron Pagoda to the Stable and the Grenadier to the Castle. It would not necessarily need another economy bonus when they can be more powerful in the Castle Age.
Then, I think it would be nice to allow their Fishing Ships to have capabilities that carry 5 units and fire arrows with maybe 3 damage at a fixed range of about 3 tiles (like how villagers shoot) from the Feudal Age. This would allow them to be more aggressive in the early game on maps like Team Islands, and also reflect to their lifestyle about fishing and their piracy in history.
emm, but they should use pig better.
Not happening. You are dreaming
Okay then. Us AoE players refer all herdable that has 100 food as sheep. Sheep, Goat, Pig, Turkey, Goose all are Sheep.
Back when the Iron Pagoda was shown in teaser pic, I thought they will replace Knight line. Didn’t really happen though.
That’s correct.
Maybe have a unique ship that can both do fishing and fighting?
Wont this be broken in the dark and feudal ages as you can use these ships offensively to deny the enemy of fishing spots?
So I stated that the Fishing Ships can have those capabilities started “from the Feudal Age”.
If it’s just like how hunters shoot arrows, without being able to upgrade attack power and range, I don’t think it will be broken. These armed Fishing Ships can at most harass but not effectively destroy ships. If they are harrassing enemy Fishing Ships, they can’t fish in the same time. When your waters are invaded, they can somewhat help your military vessels fight back instead of just running and hiding. Perhaps they can have an attack bonus against military vessels so that they can be more helpful to defend waters and have a chance to defeat a smaller number of enemy military vessels if they are outnumbered, but still not be able to effectively hunt enemy Fishing Ships. As the game progresses into the Castle Age and beyond, their combat capabilities become almost completely ineffective anyway.
More importantly they may be also able to carry maybe 5 units fixed, so that on the maps like Team Islands, you can have a early rush without making a Transport Ship.
They totally deserve the Iron Pagoda in the stable. Besides giving them a better cavalry game in the game, they also had the heaviest, most actively used, and most accomplished heavy cavalry in the history compared with other civs in that region.
Tanguts’ Iron Hawks were fairly heavy too, but are considered probably lighter than the Iron Pagoda and as the very elite troop only account for a pretty small portion of the Xi Xia army, said 3,000 men out of 370,000. I think the potential Tanguts are the better civs suited to have heavy cavalry UU in the castle.
The Khitans made more frequent use of heavy cavalry charges and other tactics typical of non-nomadic peoples than the Mongols, but their heavy cavalry were considered significantly less heavy than that of the Jurchens and Tanguts, and even that of the Song Chinese. To reflect this, maybe just need to give their Steppe Lancers a chance to gain extra armor in the late game after the Khitanguts split.
Delhi Sultanate in AoE4 have a similar bonus (though I believe there it starts in dark age - but AoE4 does have shorter dark ages and the ability to rush age-ups). I don’t recall it ever being anything game-breaking there. It would be great on four lakes (you spot a vil trying to build a dock on your pond, so you have a fishing ship harass the villager, stopping the dock from coming up or at least delaying it). Also could provide an emergency defense if an opponent tries to destroy a dock with MAAs. On full water maps, players should have a dock up before Feudal age anyways. It would be a small boon in actual combat, but I doubt it would be anything game-breaking. But still a nice bonus.
I liked how the old Realms mod gave Jurchens a huge Petard discount to put their style of siege play ay the forefront
The ship may not attack in Dark Age.
Since you are blending 3 units into 1, they won’t be balanced. Especially when we’re talking about naval units.
Tatars.
I mean, have like +2/+2 armor, or more armor and/or more HP in Imperial Age to Steppe Lancers and a new mounted archer UU.
Tatars have +1/+1 armor in Castle Age to scouts, Steppe Lancers and CAs.
I don’t feel so but who knows. This can be proved only when it gets implements.
My own ideas for potential Jurchen buffs:
I think they would benefit significantly from some more iterations on their UUs. Main other thing is that murder holes really should be considered a fortification technology (faster research speed would be good for it too), while town watch and town patrol researching faster would also be logical (main use cases are spotting incoming attacks - such as a castle drop on arena - and getting map vision with outposts). The other technologies listed are techs that do affect defensive structures (with chemistry also unlocking BBCs), but are also largely a ranged unit upgrade in addition to a fortification upgrade.
I don’t think Jurchens need much of a boost to their economy - they already have better eco bonuses than Bulgarians and Magyars (and the latter is historically a strong civ), and access to every eco tech is practically an eco bonus in itself.
Jurchens also seem like they should play fine as a defensive civ (due to the defensive bonus and UT), but could use better post-imp army options. Siege and hussars/steppe lancers are great, but range and barracks options are a bit lackluster (with the only great option there being their cav archers which are missing two key techs, even if the cavalry attack speed acts as a replacement for thumb ring)
Murder Holes, Town Watch line → Yes, definitely.
Ballistics, Fletching line, Chemistry → I would say no. They affect too many aspects and mostly people research them for archer push. Even though their archers are not strong, but that’s out of the theme of the bonus.
The Iron Pagoda could be fine if it is at the Stable.
The Grenadier need buffs anyway. if it is at the Castle, there will be the Elite upgrade that can improve it well in the late game.
Maybe making units receive -50% friendly fire damage becomes the team bonus, because in the team game the Jurchen player usually focus on Rocket Carts or Grenadiers and need cover from allies.
I like the idea to improve the archer units, but I think the lack of Thumb Ring and Parthian Tactics is on purpose. They probably intended to force the player to choose gunpowder units for ranged options (though the Grenadier and Rocket Carts are still not easy vs infantry), so they make CAs a viable option only for a short period after hitting Castle Age to at least reflect on their mention of Jurchen archers in the history section.
I would personally give Arbalester upgrade, keeping the Thumb Ring and Parthian Tactics missing, and locking more archer improvements in the Castle, like replacing the Fortified Bastion with a new UT “Mengan Mouke System”: Archer line and Cavalry Archer line units have 100% accuracy and cost -33% gold. This way their intended lack of power is maintained but later on they can still get better.
My try.
Civ bonuses:
Tech tree adjustment:
The Castle Age Iron Pagoda is OP, moreso if they are available in the Stable, but their elite upgrade is pretty lackluster (well, it’s actually the case for many UUs as well).