I guess that’s because they want to encourage people have a castle to use them in the Castle Age since preparing a castle is heavy in the early game. On the other hand, as many UUs require less upgrades for being fully upgraded than general units so they make them relatively bland in the late game.
As for Iron Pagoda, no problem that it’s HP can be a bit weaken in the Castle Age if it can be moved to the stable, and then maybe the Elite Iron Pagoda needs to charge faster.
It will be game breaking in Nomad and some maps where losing water is immediately gg.
Still overlaps. Also I don’t see the faster attacking SL is not taken away, at least not in 5 years.
Man needs dreams in life.
Compared with Silk Armor, it would affect different types of units (except for the steppe lancer), and it would have more effect on the steppe lancer. I won’t say it is a serious problem here, like the discount bonuses of Magyars and Berbers on the scout cav or the attack improvements from Manipur Cavalry and Farimba.
And it still not a must. I mean I hope the steppe lancer (and a new mounted archer-typed UU like a cataphract archer/crossbowman) can get more to represent the historical Khitan heavy cavalry, adding armors may be just one of the potential approaches. Additional HP by a fixed number, damage reduction, etc.
I didn’t mean the bonus of faster attacking should be removed. But on the other hand, I do want to see the Ordo not providing the current regeneration, since that makes the cavalry performing more like plunderers but to me the Ordo should feel like royal guards.
By the way that regeneration can be handed over to the Tanguts I think, and personally I’d like to name it Warlikeness for representing the warlike nature of Tangut people and the high militarization of Xi Xia during at least the rule of Yuanhao, and also It also makes sense that warlike warriors regenerate during combat.
Might be getting a bit questionable in terms of theme for the bonus, but still would be appropriate for the civ. Still, I’m perfectly fine with ballistics/fletching line/chemistry being excluded. Though chemistry unlocking BBCs/cannon galleons (and other gunpowder units) is as much of a reason to research it as the +1 damage.
I think that Jurchen cav archers are actually better in imperial age than they are in castle age. Their attack speed is faster than generic, but in castle age their accuracy is 50% while in imperial their accuracy is 80%. And with ring archer armor, they still have good armor (same as Mongols and Huns), just end up missing the extra damage against spear units. Very few civs have full upgrades on cav archers: only Turks, Tatars, Japanese, Saracens, and Magyars. Jurchen heavy cav archers are fully viable (more so than Jurchen cav archers). Might not be up to the standard of top cav archer civs, but still fairly respectable, ending on par with Bulgarian, Berber, Chinese, Hindustani, Spanish, and Khitan cav archers (though Khitan cav archers are definitely better in late castle age, and Berber/Spanish cav archers are overshadowed by their UUs)
I’ll also note that Grenadiers have 9 bonus damage against infantry, so they should wipe the floor against most infantry units. They’ll also do solid damage against anti-archer infantry units like huskarls and Jian Swordsmen, and have a high enough pierce attack to deal with condos - though if any of these units get close, the grenadiers should fall quite quickly.
First, Losing water in nomad is not immediate gg. In my experience, it’s somewhat common for water on hybrid maps to get ignored after Feudal age, especially if fishing ships were all destroyed - and not just in nomad. It is very much possible to win the match after losing fishing ships. If you win the land battle, then the water battle often ceases to matter. Even if you don’t win shortly after losing water, a good land boom (or sufficient land damage) can provide just as much advantage (or more) than winning water (and then fish-booming) would have.
Second, there is a lot of shoreline - too much to cover all of it early on. Even if you could cover all of the shoreline with ships, I still wouldn’t expect a weak attack from fishing ships to keep determined players from getting a dock up.
Third, I don’t expect weak attacks from fishing ships to be an instant win in water battles - especially against civs with good bonuses for feudal water battles. And any time fishing ships spend fighting is time they don’t spend fishing.
Being better than the CAs of non-CA civs like Bulgarian, Berber, Chinese, Hindustani, Spanish doesn’t matter. Like Franks have obviously better archer line than the Spanish but that doesn’t mean the archers of Franks are considered fully viable.
Top class CAs have bonuses with full upgrades or lack some upgrade in exchange for even more powerful bonuses or UT. I don’t feel the 20% faster firing is enough to make up the lacks and give more for Jurchen CAs. The Thumb Ring makes CA fire +11% faster so actually the bonus only brings +9% for Jurchen CAs and still lack the Parthia Tactics and the 20% accuracy that is fairly enough for shooting in a close range but still a little bit disadvantage in a long range, strictly speaking. When a unit is not top class people won’t treat it as the main choice of the civ but the support at most, since there usually would be another type of unit is top class for the civ.
To make their Archer and CA more viable, I choose the gold discount (as well as the 100% accuracy) for them to be the new UT replacing the Fortified Bastion. For the Arbalester, the discount could make up the lack of Thumb Ring, and for the CA, the discount and the +9% faster firing could make up the lack of Parthian Tactics and give a bit more in my opinion.
That’s the point. They really need other units being the frontline for cover. In 1v1, this usually has to wait until late game, as the player needs economic strength to afford both the frontline units and Grenadiers. In my opinion, it is naturally a relative late game unit, so having it trainable in the Castle and upgradable to Elite is more reasonable than having it, a siege unit, trainable in the standard buildings and encouraging the player to use it early.
I know that the Paladin upgrade is special and not every UU upgrade in age 4 should match the power jump from Knight to Paladin. However, most of these upgrade are still very expensive, in the case of the Elite Iron Pagoda specifically, it give practically the same value as the Cavalier upgrade (which make it very bad for the cost). Meanwhile, the Leitis upgrade is cheaper but give a lot more value for the unit.
Most of bad upgrades are for unique infantrys, though; as the tech cost for Champion are much lower than Paladin, it makes these unique infantry upgrades look very bad
Bulgarians do actually use their cav archers (as it is their best ranged option other than siege and a solid one at that). Outside of that, cav archers may sometimes get used when a situation calls for it (such as against Teutons)
Personally, I don’t think Saracen players tend to go for cav archers much either, and they actually have full upgrades on their cav archers (making their cav archers one of the better cav archers in the game). More likely to go for foot archers (which benefit from their team bonus) or mamelukes (another strong ranged cavalry unit).
Often true (especially in team games), but 1v1s (or FFAs) will often see players going for units that their civ doesn’t specialize in to help round out their composition or to counter an enemy unit. And cav archers go well with hussars (which Jurchens have both full upgrades and a bonus for) and get bonus damage against spearmen (while keeping the mobility of cavalry - something grenadiers and siege units lack). And in a cav archer/hussar combo, the cav archers are the gold unit while the hussars are more a meat shield (but both are important)
That’s a negligible bonus. It was too powerful for Tatars during the drush fc meta where they could do 2 militias and still hit castle age and get xbows + bodkin in under 16 mins.
Don’t think its that great of a bonus even then since sheep are slow. Maybe they should start with 2 huntable chicken in dark age or get 3 in feudal.
Even though I love the idea of getting rid of awfully weak civs like Wei, I don’t think its going to happen. They’ll stay useless for a long time and that good eco bonus will remain wasted with them.
Yeah, I don’t like that either.
Not as bad as previous example as one is Castle Age UT another one is Imperial. And it makes sense Castle Age UT will be weaker.
Sorry. You’re talking about Khitanguts here, right? I thought it was Jurchens. I will say +2 attack on SL is more powerful than +20% faster attack. If you add extra armor on top, you are making an absolutely broken SL.
The Khitans have no Blast Furnace, so if you give their SLs more armors with a Imperial Age UT that should be fine. Indeed I’ve meant I’d like to change the effect of Ordo Cavalry to give SLs and a cataphract archer UU (replacing the Liao Dao) extra armor (or ettra fixed HP, or damage reduction), while the current cavalry regeneration during attacking can be inherited by the Tanguts after the split.
As for the Jurchens, I’d like to replace the Fortified Bastion with a new UT that give Archer line and Cavalry Archer line 100% accuracy and -33% gold cost. This UT can be named to “Mengan Mouke System”, the military and administrative organization of Jurchens that originated from their tribal hunting organizations. After giving the civ Arbalester, it is supposed to make their Arbalesters and HCAs decent enough in the late game through this upgrade locked in the Castle while maintaining the lack of Thumb Ring and Parthian Tactics.
Fair enough. But problem is water snowballs faster than land. Making Fishing Ship which costs only wood, a military unit can be a game braking thing.
Sheep are faster than farming, and extra sheep would further delay the farm transition (which is a bonus in itself and would make fast castles easier). Not every bonus needs to have a huge impact to be worthwhile (or fun). Jurchens current eco bonus is generally a bit on the weak side, but makes it easier for them to guard against laming strats and should be especially strong if a player can pull a lot of boars all at once (like pros sometimes do on black forest). I think the bonus should be especially strong on a map like Mired (just pull the boars earlier without any concern for decay).
If fishing ships are only dealing one damage to other ships, then they won’t have much impact in water battles, but would still be able to flip close fights and finish off low hp ships. They would be as much a military unit as Spanish and Inca villagers.
Probably because of its so low gold cost. And unlike Leitis, Iron Pagoda is not weak against pierce attacks.
I don’t think Jurchens need too big of a buff. If you buff their early game too much, you will make them Mongols 2.0 with their SL.
Someone asked 2 Deer which will be too huge. I’m unsure about hunting as they have SL. Could be too powerful.
Nah. I’m sure buff is coming for Wei in the next patch along with Pasture nerf for Khitans.