They literally had that bonus originally but was underpowered and the increased.
And Indians already got a lot of nerfs (no more melee armor on camels which is really think It should be back,fishermen bonus reduced to 10% and Shatagni used to give HC 100% accuracy.)
Indians are heavily focused on camels and gunpowder, BEs isn’t viable.
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Maybe I shouldn’t have added the PS. Do you agree with the rest of the post? That part is the point really.
PPS
Another way of nerfing the Indian Eco would be to increase the age-up cost by 20%. But again they’d require better units for 1v1s
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This literally does the opposite of what you proposed. It boosts their options in TGs due to having a unit that is usually only made in TGs. And nerfs them in 1v1 where early eco matters more.
No. Because in TGs pop efficiency is worth more than cost efficiency. TG Paladins are the meta because they are so pop efficient, compared to eagles for example.
A farimba camel has +1 raw dmg over an IC,lower building dmg, less hp, longer training time, lower PA, weaker late game eco.
Saracen HC is weaker in every single way except 10hp.
But can be hard countered more easily by camels, moves slower and is replenished/massed slower (both due to tt and movement speed)
But to be fair i dont think Indians are any more auto pick than Frank’s for TGs. Both are revolting but paladins can at least be chased/countered by the variously buffed camels.
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Imperial Camels are good against all cavalry, they do slightly more damage against buildings, but outside of that they are weaker in every way compared to the Paladin.
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They are faster than Paladins, which is a big advantage in raiding, however.
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I was talking about which is better vs buildings, the IC or paladin, since people complained about the Indian bonus for camel of +7 vs buildings.
Paladin has 20 more HP and 3 more Pierce Armour (2 more because of Indians bonus), so Paladin would be better for standing under Castles and TCs.
I guess it depends on what buildings you want to attack, and how defended they are.
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True, but at the same time they lack the damage output of the Paladin. Roughly you need a 3 IC for 2 Pala ratio to meet the same damage output.
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Everyone avoid making Byz or Celt palas as much as possible and would not take those civ while planning to play palas, so I don’t think Ethiopian imp camels would see much action. And then Mongol/Chinese/Tatar/Turk ones wouldn’t be too bad, it’s just that they wouldn’t make sense.
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That is also true, but sometimes the speed more than makes up for it.
In TGs, where both units see a lot of usage, raiding the frail Trade Carts is done better with more Speed, than more Damage, for example.
In 1v1, the Paladin is just better than the Imp Camel at everything, except facing Cavalry.
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Yeah, even with that +5 IC are still vulnerable vs archers and buildings.
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So I read the Thread now thwice and though about it during a rather sleepless night.
Let my first bring my premise to the table:
The probleme here is that before ICs existed HCs had no place at all. It was more viable to counter Paladins with your own Paladins and there is a wide varioty of different Civs that offer Paladins with their own special flavor when it’s about army composition.
ICs changed that as there is a new valid option to counter Paladins pop efficient and thats the IC.
So the reason that Indians are an instant pic for TeamGames is the option to counter Paladins with Camels.
So if we “fix” the IC we will just get back to the meta before Indians existed. Camels will fall back into obscurity and we will again see pocket paladins.
I bring forward the idea of fixing the camels all together. And making more camelcivs viable as camel civs.
For this i propose to:
- Make the upgrade to HC more expansive
- Boost HCs to be, without a civ bonus, at eye level with IC.
I suggest:
130HP 9ATK 1MA 1PA
+reduce bonus damage against normal cav. - Change the Indian to get ICs instead of HC a Unique Unit that is a free automatic upgrade from the normal camel once you advance to imp
IC improves HC with +1MA - Rework the other uniqe bonus/tec like Farimba or Zealotry to create slightly worse HCs than ICs
This results to:
- IC isn’t outstanding in countering paladins as the atkbonus got reduced.
- With more armour HCs are more viable as a pop effective unit.
- Indians aren’t an instapick anymore.
This way we get a new cav meta. You now have the option to choose your camelciv the same way you choose the paladin one. you consider the other unites and bonuses a civ gives to you.
What do you think about this idea?
- stupid
- awesome
- i like where this is going but:
- camel cost should go up
- HC still aren’t viable with these changes
- IC/Indianbonus is still to strong compared to HC
- other change needed
0
voters
This is not true. In AoC Heavy Camels were hindered by having Ship Armour, which made too weak against defences, but they have always been great against Cavalry.
Heavy Camels have always been a cheaper and efficient way to counter Paladins and Heavy Cavalry Archers.
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No need to buff HC quite that much. I can see @phoenix1089 point that Zealotry Heavy Camel (HC), Farimba HC & 20% discounted Maghrabi HC are actually worse then ImpC, but it’s 30 hp vs 3 attack vs 20hp + 2 attack + 1 PA. Buffing HC by 10hp 10 attack ought to make the other 3 camel civ’s camels just as viable. (In fact they’d be better than ImpC, but Indians have better eco.)
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How is that different to Franks spamming Paladins with their unique technology? It’s literally the same thing…
Look at what I said in my original suggestions post. The numbers I quoted are not set in stone, just hypothetical for reference.
Halberdiers should be strong against camels, camels should be strong against paladins, and paladins should be weak to halberdiers but not as weak as camels.
As it is currently, heavy camels are really not that strong agianst paladins once fully upgraded in imperail age, and even halberdiers lose their advantage eventually. On so many occaions I’ve built masses of halberdiers thikning this will stop a paladin rush, and it literally does nothing in imperial age - the paladins just storm right through them.
You need to also consider that paladins are used not just on the frontlines but for backdoor rushes on economies. In that situation, halberdiers, due to lack of speed, are completely useless against them.
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If people in this thread are so annoyed by Imperial Camels, then you should all also be complaining about paladin civs too. Paladins crap on every other unit and I would say are the best unit in the game for team games, especially considering how little skill they take to use…
Without imperial camels, what good counters to paladins are there in imperial age?
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In my honest opinion, only 5 civs should have Paladin, and those should be civs taht are dependant on Paladin for the lategame.
It is true that it is an overly efficient unit that, when properly massed, lacks counters entirely.
A mass of 40 Paladins is assured crippling economical damage, that the opponent will not be able to stop, unless he has the economy fully walled in.
They can go against 40 Heavy Camels or 80 Halbs, and still deliver the deathblow to the enemy economy before they all die.
Paladins are way too strong, so much so that if they get taken out from a Tech Tree, the civ’s players scream to get it back. It is too much of a crutch.
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Because you can deal with Paladins without having to resort to halbs, and IMO Indian eco is much better than Franks (also imp camels are cheaper to produce and upgrade)
How can you deal with paladins without resourting to halbs that doesn’t also work on imperial camels?
And if Indian eco is much better than franks, then nerf Indian eco instead of nerfing imperial camels?
It just sounds like you like paladin civs and want an excuse to nerf imperial camels.
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