I was thinking a guandao would be a good weapon for a cavalry unit that wasn’t just pure fantasy. Being heavy and bulky isn’t really a disadvantage on horseback. It could also replace Qiang Pikemen but they’re actually at least a real thing so all that would fix is a silly name.
Flamethrowers are an interesting unit but are waaay too early. At least rocket weapons like Flying Crows were still being used in the AoE3 era. Flamethrowers are also a lot less unique with all the Maltese fire based attacks.
Manor houses really should have a unique skin since they’re a unique building. I guess tact that they’re identical to normal houses after being built. Would still be a nice addition though.
What difference would it make in British gameplay if each Manor cost 280 wood but spawned 2 villagers at a time?
Then it could be more easily justified to give them a unique model as well as making them significantly larger than a normal house.
First off, not all Chinese glaive-like weapons are guandao… The weapon in the painting you attached is most likely another kind that named “屈刀” or “眉尖刀” in Chinese.
Being heavy and bulky is indeed the reason why guandao is not used in actual combat whether by cavalry or infantry, which has also been said in Chinese materials. Guandao is deliberately decorated with impractical decoration and weight for ceremonial and training purposes. Even if the cavalry can use glaives, they will not use Guandao.
More importantly, after the Song Dynasty, the army’s emphasis on glaive-like weapons declined. Because the standard lances and pikes are cheaper, more practical, and easier to use. Besides the always popular qiang spear, langxian and dangpa also started to be developed in the Ming Dynasty.
I’m not opposed to introducing Glaive Cavalry to replace Meteor Hammer, but apparently the devs prefer Meteor Hammer because it’s unique compared to other polearm-wielding cavalry. Given that many see guandao as an umbrella term with Chinese glaive-like weapons, perhaps nameing it Guandao Cavalry would also be fine. However the Qiang should never be replaced.
Countless wars the Chinese have participated in for thousands of years, and Chinese spears have been the main weapon in every of them. The game cannot do without them.
Only the Chinese Flamethrowers, Maltese Fire Throwers and Maltese Outposts in the game.
3 is obviously very rare compared to the number of units using guns or bows, spears or swords.
Other than the Maltese, only Flamethrowers can throw flames, and that’s what makes it unique.
The Chinese units do need some redesign. Given that the Qing dynasty (which occupies the majority of the game’s timeframe) employed troops from Chinese, Manchu, and Mongol population, they should all be reflected. Here is a rundown of what should be fixed:
Changdao: Changdao were more of a backup weapon for crossbowman and arquebusiers in the Ming dynasty. If would be better to redesign them as “Podao Footman” (maybe with a small AOE attack in melee). Podao is very similar to Guandao, and was definitely used by the Green Standards and various militia group in Qing dynasty.
Keshik: Keshik is an anachronism here, as the Mongol Empire was already gone for some time. Better to name it as “Mongol Outrider”. There is a whole Mongol Banner army that is not represented in this game.
Meteor Hammer: Meteor hammer are more of a martial arts weapon, and very unlikely to be used by horseman. Interestingly, the Manchu Horse Archers were known to shoot very heavy arrows over short distances, delivering very powerful blows. Maybe this unit can be redesigned as a “Manchu Archer”.
Iron Flail: While flail cavalry were sporadically used in China, they were very rare. Qing horseman were all-purpose cavalry, but would generally charge with lances. Thus they can probably be designed as “Manchu Lancers”.
Flamethrower: This should be replaced entirely. The unit is an anachronism, and does not do too well in the game either. We can consider replacing them with “Jingal Gunner” or “Nest of Bees Launcher” (or both).
“Tiger Troop” should be a unit sendable from the home city (like the Sipahi or Urumi). They should be very tough (High HP) shock infantry, to supplement the otherwise rather fragile Chinese infantry.
Flying Crow could be replaced by “Hongyi Cannon”. This should also be a mercenary unit. But the Confucian Academy should be able to create Hongyi Cannon very slowly.
“Three-Eyes Gunner” should definitely be a mercenary unit. They can be the Chu Ko Nu version of the musketeer, complete with a Changdao sidearm.
-Iron Flail: I’ve read that the Koreans did use Iron Flails (Pyeongon) in large numbers, so if the Koreans are ever added as a civ, the Iron Flails can be their basic cavalry units. As for the Chinese, it can be somehow referred to as Korean allied cavalry units providing assistance to the Chinese.
-Glaive Rider: It is a unit that I have invented, with the same base stats as the Naginata Rider, and that can be available to all civs that used cavalry that wielded Glaives: Chinese, Japanese, Koreans (if ever added) and even the Russians could get them somehow. In the Industrial Age (or maybe the Fortress Age) Glaive Riders can be upgraded depending on the corresponding civilization, with a different name and appearance for each civ: Guandao Riders (Chinese), Naginata Riders (Japanese), Woldo Riders (Korean), Sovnya Riders (Russian). For the Chinese, these could be obtained or allowed to train through cards, or they can be the replacement of the Iron Flails, or they can be obtained in another way, etc. (This depends on the devs)
-Three-Eyes Gunner: can be a mercenary version of the Chu Ko Nu.
Changdao was often used as a general term for two handed swords, so there is no need to deliberately change to a more specific two handed sword type.
Keshik can be renamed Steppe Archer to match Steppe Rider well.
Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers are very interesting and exotic existences, full of oriental flavor. Rather than letting them pick up lances and bows, the devs would probably prefer to keep them unique. Also, replacing hand heavy cavalry with archers is inappropriate, and making the archers have a range of only 5 would be experientially weird. If we really don’t like seeing cavalry using meteor hammers then perhaps the best way is to simply make Meteor Hammers be hand shock infantry using meteor hammers.
Also, we already have Manchu as a mercenary unit, so renaming a unit to “Manchu Archer” is unnecessarily confusing. Having said that, I’ve always supported introducing the Mongol as a mercenary to replace the Manchu, and turning the Manchu into a powerful unique unit for the Chinese, provided at the Consulate or by shipments.
Perhaps what the Flamethrower needs most is a reduction in price or population. Those Jingals or something to replace it are too different from it, which would make a huge difference to the civilization.
The conclusion is, I honestly don’t think the regular units need such drastic changes. Making such changes to them is equivalent to completely remaking the civilization. The most needed changes to Asian civs are for wonders and monks, and moving mercenaries and outlaws to the Inn. If new units like Three-Eyes Gunners, Guandao Riders, Jingals and non-mercenary Manchu are wanted so much, I think Chinese Isolation should be introduced at the Consulate to replace the German ally and provide those new stuff.
I’m always in favor of changing the look of Village. Siheyuan (lit. four-sides courtyard houses) or Sanheyuan (lit. three-sides courtyard houses) are obviously very good references.
Given the large population a Village provides, making it a larger size is logical and necessary.
The simplest solution would be to swap the roles of Keshiks and Manchus. Make Manchus the standard horse archer for China and make Keshiks the mercenary.
The current Keshik has three skins as a regular unit, using Mandarin dialogue.
The current Manchu has only one skin as a mercenary unit, using Manchu dialogue.
It is a way, maybe it would be a little less work to swap them names, but it’s also a waste in my opinion.
You have to waste at least 2 Keshik skins and design 2 new Manchu skins for it, while Manchu will lose its identity as a powerful unit and even may give up using Manchu dialogue in order to become a regular unit.
Members of the Mongolian Army should also have a Mongolian background rather than a Manchu background.
My ideal is:
Simply rename Keshik to something like Steppe Archer, keeping it elegantly in line with Steppe Rider. (Not necessary.)
Removed Manchu’s mercenary tag, but still powerful. It becomes the unit of Chinese Isolation, or the unit that has to be shipped from the HC like Sipahi and Urumi.
Introduced a powerful Mongolian horse archer unit as a mercenary to replace Manchu in its current position. I accept that it is simply and directly named “Mongol” like how Manchu is named. But it can also be named Keshik or even Mangudai as a homage if you prefer.
Kalmucks for Russians upgrades Mongol instead. Upgraded Mongols use guns instead of bows and are renamed Kalmucks.
Fair. Although I still think they need a bit of splash damage. This could be done through shipments.
It would be better if the current “Stepper Rider” is renamed to “Steppe Raider” (as is their job). The Keshik can be renamed into “Steppe Outrider”. The “steppe” theme is there, and both names are indicative of their “light horse” status.
Fair enough. Iron Flail is probably fine, if a bit exotic.
Meteor Hammer just always felt like the equivalent of a Germans “Zweihander Ritter” unique unit. My idea with the Manchu Archer is that the Chinese always has two units of the same class, but fulfill different roles. For example, Chu Ko Nu (faster) and Arquebusier (longer-range) are both Ranged LI. Qiang (better anti-cav) and Changdao (higher HP) are both Melee HI. Steppe Rider (cheap but fast) and Iron Flail (higher HP with AOE attack) are both melee HC. Meteor Hammer sort of break this trend, as their unit class is different from Keshik (albeit they could loosely be called “Ranged Cav”).
Adding the Manchu Archer (we can up the range to 8, so they still feel like a LC) would actually complement with the Keshik. The former would be a tough but short-ranged LC, while the Keshik is the cheap and long-ranged LC. Further, the current Meteor Hammer does not have any attack bonus, except against artillery. The devs can keep this property, so that the the Manchu Archer does not have a strong bonus against HC.
Agreed. The devs can replace the Manchu mercenary with the “Oirat Horseman”. The Chinese can even get a nifty card, say “Dzungar Auxilliaries” to change Oirat from a cavalry archer into a dragoon, as inspired by the Koxinga card for Iron Troop. (Or maybe not, Qing-Dzungar relations was “a bit” tense, to say the least.)
The need to change Flamethrowers is not just based on history, but also on gameplay. There are two problem with Flamethrowers:
They die very easily. At 210 HP with 65% ranged resist, they can tank only 467 ranged damage. While that might sound impressive on paper, but note that Grenadiers (which is a seldom used unit) can tank 400 ranged damage, and only cost 2 pop instead of 4. Furthermore, once in Age III, they get shot by one-shotted by artillery because they have the infantry tag. Furthermore, they die to melee (which is a big problem, because Flamethrowers only have 10 range).
They need enemy infantry to stand within range in order to deal damage. This makes them not very useful in the “shoot-and-scoot” plays of small battles. And once they are committed to a large battle, they then die to melee cavalry (or even melee infantry) and focus fire very quickly.
While these issues are definitely fixable, it may be better to replace the unit to something more historical.
Agreed. The explorers could be changed from Monks and Disciples to “Imperial Commissioner” and “Attendants”. The wonders can then be changed to some governmental building. They would be one-of-a-kind as they must receive Imperial approval. For example:
The Arsenal (replace Confucian Academy, generates Hongyi Cannons)
The Granary (replace Temple of Heaven, with Resupply replacing Transcendence)
The Magistrate (replace White Pagoda, enhances the power of the Imperial Commissioner and his Attendants.)
The Custom House (replace Porcelain Tower, generates resources through trade)
The Barbican (replace Summer Palace, gathers conscripts to generate Banner Armies)
I afraid you’re misunderstanding something. The comparison to the Iron Flail is not the Steppe Rider but the Meteor Hammer. Also as hand heavy cavalry, Iron Flail against infantry and Meteor Hammer against artillery, so they work as partners in the Forbidden Army.
Compared with the combat power composed of the above two, on the other hand, Steppe Rider and Keshik, who make up the Mongolian army, have the common identity of being cheap, low population, and fast. What I would like to see is to give Keshik a more pronounced raid advantage, such as more speed or rof, or better multiplier vs villagers or buildings, to make it a good raid partner with Steppe Rider.
IMHO, I don’t think changing regular units’ types is completely unfeasible, but I think it should be avoided as much as possible. I also don’t like the name Manchu Archer.
Oirats is not a bad name, although personally I still prefer something simplier and more familiar. Named Mongols gives this unit a very flexible context in terms of use and design. Named Mangudais can attract the attention of Aoe2 players.
The effect of switching from using a bow to a gun is exactly what I had conceived for Kalmucks a long time ago.
I’d try to make the Flamethrower use 2 or 3 pop, be a bit cheaper, and maybe even increase ranged resistance to about 80%. It’s such a unique unit. Uncommon attack style and having no heavy and light tag. I support that it must stay for the entertainment effect of the game and the characteristics of the civilization.
Replacing the Flamethrower with those proposed replacements is too much of a change to a regular unit, which would affect gameplay drastically. For example, the Jingal will conceivably have long range, like a sharpshooter using 2 or more pop. This is too far from Flamethrower.
Want Jingal? Why not promote the concept of Chinese Isolation, or introduce it as a mercenary.
I personally like “Viceroy”. The viceroys combined both military and civilian powers over one or more provinces, which makes it reasonable for it to have excellent combat capabilities and ability to build TCs and TPs. The towns built by the player is a new province of the empire under the rule of Viceroy, which makes the game’s concept of new imperial territory far from the HC becomes more distinct.
Sorry, but I don’t think at all that every wonder effect or ability needs a building as a “container”. Indians and Japanese also need changes, and some of their wonder effects may be more difficult to find suitable containers. Allowing to train Villagers while age advancing at TC can be a common bonus for Asian civs, then I guess each civ only needs about 2 type of unique buildings as the replacements for the wonders.
Chinese:
Transcendence ability can be granted directly to the civ. If no container is to be feared making it without risk of loss, then let it have a cost except for the first use.
The effect of White Pagoda can be implemented directly, no buildings are required. I even wanted to just change it to a new effect, because it seems to be more suitable as a card only.
The option to replace the Porcelain Tower can ship a Trade Workshop rickshaw if not have yet, and unlocks the options for food, lumber or coin generating in the Trade Workshop.
The option to replace the Confucian Academyr can ship a Trade Workshop rickshaw if not have yet, and unlocks the fireworks generating option in the Trade Workshop to spawn Flying Crows.
The option to replace the Summer Palace can ship a Barbican (or Fortified Town or Garrison or something) rickshaw. Barbican has an attack, which is equivalent to the Fort for the Chinese.
Japanese:
The option to replace the Golden Pavilion can ship a Forge (or Blacksmith) rickshaw.
Informers ability can be given directly to the civ. Like Transcendence, maybe there is a cost after the first use. This option can also improve Ninja and Shinobi and allow them to be trained at Castles.
The option to replace the Shogunate can ship a Daimyo and a Tenshu rickshaw. Tenshu can use the current skin of Shogunate and has an attack, which is equivalent to the Fort for the Japanese.
The effect of Torii Gates can be implemented directly.
The option to replace the Toshogu Shrine can just ship 2 Shrine rickshaws and improve Shrines.
Indians:
The option to replace the Agra Fort can ship a Qila (or Kilaa) rickshaw. Qila can be just renamed from Agra Fort.
The effect of Karni Mata can be granted to Sacred Fields, perhaps with a smaller radius.
The option to replace the Charminar Gate can also ship a rickshaw to build the replacement. Although I personally prefer to have Mansabdar or Raja as the Indian hero unit, and have this age option grant the aura to it, rather than making Mansabdar just the title of the elite version of each regular unit.
Cease Fire and Inspiration can be granted directly to the hero (Mansabdar or Raja).
One of the Keshik skins could be used for a Kalmyk variant. It should obviously still speak Manchu, and it would make more sense to rename the Mongolian Army instead of making Manchu more Mongolian.
I really think that this borders on nitpicking. Under the eyes of a microscope, every civ has flaws, inaccuracies and stereotypical elements. It’s a game, not a phd thesis in renaissance history. Which is why a samurai slays down five strelzev, the dutch focus on rushing a hundred banks in their new colony, germans somehow fusing prussia and habsburgs in one civ (Bismarcks achronistic legacy i guess) and whatever dance the mesoamericans do 11.
If you wish for more realism that’s fine ofc, but you will be much better off using mods.
I would really question your understanding of history and phd if you think the ideas suggested here (for example an age 4 church model for British) are already the history phd level.
Last time I got this cultural shock was “if you want to play a perfectly historically accurate game go play total war”.
While I’m an amateur at history at best, my understanding of nitpicking is fairly nuanced, so to speak. Why would the brits need another protestant church, when there’s already 3-4 other protestant models (swedes, dutch, usa, germans). Meanwhile one of the only two orthodox models looks like a barn.
And is that really more important than say, forgetting about the whole of polish-lithuania or the confederate states AT ALL? Then, for the sake of historical accuracy and political correctness, usa should be a tycoon-civ only, as they aren’t allowed to wage in their biggest, bloodiest, most important war, since their enemy’s flag and culture is currently taboo.
Every time someone mentions some details of game history, someone will always say “this is not a history simulator, this is not a history textbook”, and today we saw you say “this is not a doctoral dissertation”. But this game has a historical background, it is not a virtual world overhead game, and some suggestions about graphics and names will not damage the gameplay in any way. It’s hard to call this “nitpicking”.
It can be seen that the poster is very aware of this point, that is, the suggestion he made will not affect the gameplay, and it is in line with the logic of developers updating the game since the DE version.
If it is said that this game can not pay attention to those weird historical details, then does the large number of changes from the DE version to today seem meaningless? Or are these changes better than none? So why not just play the original game?
Numerous changes to the game, including but not limited to: British Green Jackets, French Revolution, German Electors, and a complete overhaul of Turkish civilization,
All of these are more in line with historical facts. In your opinion, are developers enough to write several papers?
Because the models of the others change at age 4.
That is the very first point made by the very first sentence (a short and simple one) of the post. Did you even read it?
Did anyone here say a single word about “let the devs ONLY do these and do not make anything else ever after?”
Seems you are not lying about your understanding on nitpicking. You are actually qualified as a phd for it as you did not even read most of the things discussed here before jumping in to nitpick on very minor points (some not even mentioned here).
Essentially, no. This game started as a colonial age simulation, with an entirely fictional campaign, fictional unit balance, fictional home cities (oh the moscow mountains and famous beijing harbors 11) etc. At best it can be said that it’s inspired by real history, but chose to divert from reality for the sake of gameplay or political correctness.
And gameplay wise, I’d rather recreate the us civil war then have another anglican church model that looks like a catholic church anyway.
Then the game must have sold equally well or even much better if the civs are called gigachad eco civ no 1 and super duper cavalry civ no 2, units are called space marines, played on random map seed 17366118.
Because British church model DOES NOT CHANGE AT AGE 4 while others CHANGES AT AGE 4.
11111111111111
Yeah a British church that CHANGES AT AGE 4 is political correctness.
Chinese not living in yurts is political correctness.
Japanese having a proper shrine is political correctness.
I smell the stink of some certain political agenda. Such an instinct never failed me. You can make your own thread for that. This is not the place.
