Improving Cumans

Ah yes I meant 3 different units. God forbid 2 units types or allies help with their units. And of course each team game people only field one unit type. There have never been like Mongol death balls of Mangudai with hussar or with siege onagers etc. Bruh…

Yeah man all of them are gonna necessarily hit their targets. Perhaps I meant that literally all 90 miss. Yeah that’s precisely what I meant.

Cool story bro.

Dude… We were talking about bloody Magyar Kipchaks. Without recurve bow, they deal 2 damage to Paladin and 3 arrows with 1 damage. You really think that’s A LOT OF DAMAGE? I probably should ask SpiritOfTheLaw to make a video on who kills Paladin better with Bracer, HCAs or Kiphacks. That would be cool.

It is literally the same situation with Kipchaks… It is not a matter of how many you could field. You still need more Kipchaks to oneshot Paladin then HCAs.

SotL tests are great in a hypothetical situation but lacking when it comes to real game experience. but go ahead and keep leaning on those.

but those kipchaks are cheaper, so needing more isn’t an issue. and when you have enough to 1 shot them, look at all the extra damage they are doing at the same time. Bracer is a massive buff. Sorry you don’t see it.

I was just saying it for fun. I would be really intersting to know who is better at beating Paladin with Bracer HCAs or Kipchaks.

Yeah they are. They are also much less tanky. They would cost more in my Cuman update idea with +5 gold and I agree that Bracer is a massive buff but I believe that they need it.

1 ON 1 the HCA. but in a group KipChaks should wreck.

Just a precisation: when I said the 2nd TC is problematic I meant not overpowered, simply hard to use well.
For example Britons’ and Franks’ economic bonus is not hard to use well, just kill sheeps and build TCs or just gather berries and make farms, super easy. The second TC sometimes can’t be built, so there it goes the only eco bonus, wasted.
This is a problem, because when you try to assess the strength of the civ is really erratic such an eco bonus. That’s why I called it problematic.

As for Steppe Lancer, I stand for the imperial upgrade only for Cumans, can be adjusted much better without any problem to Tatars and Mongols, obviously replacing the Paladin. Not sure what stats to give to it though, can’t be on equal footing with Paladin for 70f 40g, and obviously not with the UT that can spam them in 7.5 seconds.
Maybe something like a slightly weaker cavalier on the melee armor side? 100hp 12atk 1/2 armor?
Closer to what it was at the start, minus the collision size, which was the big part of it (I think).

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Nomadic identity…
Huns & Magyars: ?

A civ need a strong unit as their main force. I don’t feel Paladin is wrong to Cumans.

I can already see that Mongol and Magyar players easily organize a large group of Elite Kipchaks to sweep the game. No one can stop them.

I always suggest it could be changed to spawn about 5 or 8 Elite Kipchaks per existing and future castles for the player and allies. The number of Elite Kipchaks spawned can be stacked if there are multiple Cuman players researching it in a team. In this way, it can make it a continuous effect, and when the ally wants to get more Elite Kipchaks, he has to pay more and more castles, effectively suppressing excessive gain.

This didn’t solve the problem.
It is still weaker than knights, more expensive than light cavalry and not worth considering.

Personally, I’d rather give it attack bonus against infantry, especially against halberdier, but still weak and easily be killed by archers, so that it can take on new identities without being compared to knights and light cavalry.

I agree in some degree.
Perhaps make the 2nd TC in the feudal age built by normal efficiency but training the villagers slower than the normal efficiency.

Here is how I would Improve cumans.

A) Remove the 2nd TC in feudal. The cheaper production buildings have worked and they are far easier to balance. The 2nd TCs for the most part only produce very volatile games that aren’t fun at all. It was an interesting Idea, but it failed.

B) In compensation for TGs the Team bonus becomes + 40 % HP on palisades. Currently the Cumans can use their 2nd TCs to get a cheap eco advantage in TGs which makes them a strong pocket civ. Losing that 2nd TC would most likely put them on places behind Persians or Spanish. So a small buff to the Team bonus compensates for that.

C) Steppe husbandry gives +10 % speed on all cavalry units. With the discount on production buildings the productions speed became redundant. In coherence with the civ theme of having the fastest cav, they now can furtherly increase the cav speed.

D) Kipchak base Speed reduced to 1.35. Kipchak are currently Cumans “best bet” in the lategame. To make steppe lancers and paladins more appealing a small reduction to the kiptchak base speed can possibly open more options for the civ.

E) Cuman Mercenaries replaced by: Field Engineers. Replaces the Gold cost of Rams by Wood. This compensates the lack of good defences for the cumans, giving them trash siege, so the opponent defences are equally vulnerable. Allows the cumans to make more use of their strong lategame cav.

F) Cumans lose Access to Siege Ram. Trahs Siege Ram would probably be too strong. Trash Capped Ram is most likely enough already. Needs to be tested though, we don’t have experience with trash siege yet. But it would fit in the theme of “making gold unit trash that lacks the last upgrade an techs”.

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Nah, I played numerous games with Kipchack spam because I main Cumans and they are absolutely annihalated by Paladins. They deal 1 damage + 3 arrows with 1 damage half of which miss. They are one of the weakest units Post-imp. For example, check out this T90 vid where Cuman player spammed Kipchack against Spanish paladin. Paladins literally ignored Kipchaks because of how weak they were.

If they had bracer, they would at least be able to do something against Paladins.

I dislike huns having Paladin just like with goths having bombards. Still I am okay with them because Huns are in a decent spot right now. Huns have an alternative of Tarkans to Paladins and awesome cheap HCA while Cuman’s only option is Paladin. I would be ok with Cumans having Paladin too if they also had good ESL and Kipchak. But they don’t. I still dislike Paladin for Cumans.
ESL skin has a Cuman helmet and it is logical that Cumans should prioritise them more because it their identity.
Magyars represent European medieval kingdom. It is perfectly fine for them to have Paladin.

I already addressed this concern above. Feel no need to repeat myself. It is just not as threatening as it looks like. HCA is still more viable for Magyars while Mangudai is still better for Mongol. And I proposed increasing Kipchak cost with +5 gold.

They don’t have to be more powerful than knights. Perhaps -5 food and 10 hp buff is weak but I don’t want to give them too much power too fast because it can make them broken again.

Good idea!

There was a cool idea here with making it being built by normal efficiency but cost much more wood like 100 or more. I think that’s better.

Ah yes a small buff to Team bonus would compensate deleting their only economic bonus…

They already have 15 bonus speed as their civ bonus, That would be redundant.

That would only make Paladin an only option of Cumans even more. ESL and Kipchaks would be forever forgotten lol

Ah yes famous Cuman Siege Engineers. Btw have you seen their university?)

Overall, very

comment. Pretty funny, I liked it.

Personally, I don’t want to make ESL just as powerful as Paladins. I want Cumans to have a late game choice of using Paladin or ESL/Kipchak just like with Huns who have a late game choice between Paladin and Tarkans/HCA. Right now Cuman only reliable late game option is Paladin which is dissapointing. Imperial SL wouldn’t kinda fit Cuman identity because they never were centralised to have anything Imperial. Some different name would fit more though just like with Winged Hussars for Poles.
I am not for deleting 2nd TC option because I am used to it and it is very unique. I frankly find it skill-based so it is ok for me but I can see why some people find it problematic. I totally support some adjustments.

Well imperial is just a name, a bad one I might add.
Could have been “Khan’s Steppe Lancer”, if you want both, then we have to find a role for Steppe Lancer, because in my opinion no plain stat buff would make it worth over Paladins otherwise.
By finding a role I mean something like extra bonus damage against something, but I admit I didn’t think it beforehand, so I have nothing to propose.

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Yeah, Imperial is just a name but we didn’t name new hussar for Lithuanians and Poles “Imperial hussar” right?) There was a better name and thankfully devs chose it. “Khan’s Steppe Lancer” sounds very cool and much more fitting.

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Yeah nice laughing face. But opposed to your proposal my would actually work and solve the issues the vast majority of players have with current cumans.
On the other side your proposal would bring cuman steppe lancers basically back to the state they were at release. I think you need some history lessons.

And also your 66% stronger palisades would be totally OP.

But ok, you decided to go the path outside any fundamental analysis and want to buff your favorite civ to OP status. I can imagine you’re face looks exacly like depictured their now. But no reasonable dev would at any time even closely consider one of your proposals here as devs actually intentionally already nerfed several of the aspects you now want to buff again for cumans.
So don’t have high hope in your proposal. The best laughter is always the last one.

And don’t even think you could provoke me with stuff like this 11

Why not just scale the palisade HP by age? Maybe 33%/66%/100 in Feudal/Castle/Imperial? They should still be a lot easier to knock down than stonewalls.

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That’s actually a quite nice idea. But I would still begin with 40 % in dark if the 2nd tc is taken away.

Yes but how useful are palisades in castle/imperial age? not much I think, even with 100% more hp.

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So you adjust the tech tree just for your taste instead of historical accuracy, any potential strategy or the balance.

Cumans had fought for many European force. Why cannot they have Paladin?

5 gold wouldn’t change anything. The limit to the number of spawning Elite Kipchaks has its reason. We can make the effect sustainable, but we still have to care about and to consider that reason.

Of course but if changing the stats about basic combat power and cost is how you wanna buff the lancer by, you have to make it stronger than knight or cheaper than light cavalry, or the buff would be pointless.

Too expensive in the feudal age. Nobody would use it since we can save the resource just by waiting for a few minute to advancing to the castle age.

Well, the siege weapon really should be a good feature for the Cumans.
However, I think the point should be encouraging the feudal ram rather than the siege ability in the late game.
The feudal ram is being ignored like feudal TC.

I like the 2nd TC. I personally think it is ok to have a volatile eco bonus like that. If you can’t make it work as an eco bonus, then just use the cheaper buildings and Feudal rams instead. They have options. I think though, that making it cost extra stone, but regular build time could be interesting. Then people have to decide if they want to delay additional TCs in Castle unless they mine/buy stone

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I also thought about this long time ago. Ofc it would be useful if their siege workshops also were 75 w cheaper. But it would still be very situational and in most cases i’m pretty sure it would often more harm the cuman player then do him anything good.
Ofc rams could also be made cheaper for cumans, but at some point it becomes ridiculous then. Siege and especially Rams is just nothing you should blatantly make just because you can, it’s the brute force base destroyer.
Siege is a huge investment at this stage of the game and it would delay the castle age powerspike aswell. (still could be useful for forwarding after going up to castle)