In case no one has said it recently

Then you’re obviously not watching tournaments with big prize money where people keep playing OP civs. Sweden and Portugal are not even fun to watch. It must be so frustrating to play against given what they are capable of.

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If you mean tournament the only person who has won with Sweden was age of killer against soldier, and soldier never sent his musk upgrade cards for the entirety of a 20 minute game

Ill send the age 3 card but can rarely afford an age 2 upgrade as british even though i carry one in my deck.
It makes sense to upgrade the caro as its the primary unit of the swedes. The upgrade helps virtually the entire army. Ive got 3 other units that i may need to produce. If i send musket upgrades that doesnt help me as much as the swede.

As brit vs Sweden, musk should be your main unit though, you don’t want many Huss as Sweden does good vs cav, and longbows are a bit difficult to get lots of due to their wood cost, therefore against Sweden as brit it really is just a musk spam war, and that’s a war brits should be happy with taking as brit musk beet corolean, and brit economy can keep up very well with the Swedish one

You are talking right past my point

Your point was that even though brit musks beat coroleans it’s not worth getting the upgrade because you don’t make that many musks, so what are you making against Sweden theN? Because if your against Sweden as brit the easiest way to win is musk spam

My point is that every other civ has card upgrades that for the most part only affect part of their armies at any given time depending on what is happening. Swedes for the most part just need to upgrade 1. Its another of a long list of advantages.

I don’t care Sweden is OP or not anymore, but I would prefer considering it is still design failure with torps, carolean and hakkapelit same as inca units in aoe3.

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Agreed the damage is pretty much done. This concept was so good its a shame they allowed the cancer to sit so long it poisoned the well. At least some players got an ego boost for awhile sitting on op civs.

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Ok clearly your not doing what I am suggesting then, as brit against Sweden you can win quite easily by just spamming musk in age 2 from like 2-3 barracks and it’s quite easy because your musks are both population efficient and cost efficient in age 2, you really don’t need any other units, the only viable unit Sweden can spam is corolean and if musk beat corolean, the only unit Sweden can spam age 2, then brit becomes Sweden 2.0, in age 3 Sweden will start making other units like artillery and maybe hackapells

Just because Brits can stand a chance versus Swedes doesn’t make them not disgusting OP. Eco wise they’re pretty similar except Britain’s eco can be raided, which makes them balanced, unlike Sweden.

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the best way to deal with caroleans that have svea lifeguard is to go heavy artillery, the ranged resist does nothing when falconets/heavy cannons cause siege damage, now the caroleans can charge into artillery so you need halberdiers or a similar unit to protect the cannons from melee.

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How does that play out for Lakota, Aztec, China, Inca, and India?

Or, to a lesser extent, Britain (no halbs), USA (no halbs), Portuguese (no halbs), Ottos (no halbs, but jans might make up), Russia (bad halbs it never makes), Japan (weaker falcs), or Haud (similar to Japan).

That leaves 4 civs: Dutch, French, Germans, Spanish

every civ has bad match ups so not every civ will be perfectly able to counter sweden. Just as brits struggle vs dutch halbs as their longbow lack a good multiplier vs heavy inf like traditional skirms have.

For lakota I’d go rifle riders which heavily counter caroleans, especially with attack dance and when combined with the dog soldier big button at 15 or 18 min mark, dog soldiers are lancer type units so will do well vs caroleans especially if they have svea and no melee resist.

Aztec will struggle a bit late game but aztec are strongest age 2 and slingers destroy caroleans in age 2 and early age 3.

China have very cost efficient units and an excellent fortress age, both cho ku no and arqubusiers counter caroleans and are trained with melee units to prevent a charge, from fortress onwards also have access to flying crows.

Inca which is my main civ right now, massively outclass swedes in age 2, the jungle bowmen can kite caroleans all day especially with speed and poison upgrades. 5 chimu destroys the 2 leather cannons. spearmen with speed upgrade can quickly destroy torps.
Lategame just use strongholds to prevent getting caught in melee, also inca can just go water for an easy win.

India can do a lot of things, they have urumi which would destroy svea caroleans, as well as mahouts, age 2 sepoy just beat caroleans, indians can also get falcs from brit consulate if need be, china can also do that.

Britain and USA can just use musk, musk in melee are pretty much as good as halbs for defending falcs, ports do have halbs as well as musk. Jans are fine for ottos, all of russias units are weak but cost effective I guess musk is best option, japan can use any unit really, yumi and walls, ashi with full upgrades, or go atonement with yojimbo in melee. Not sure haud have weaker falcs, if it gets to age 4 they have light cannons which are the best artillery in the game, age 3 they have forest prowlers the best skirm unit.

So I think the length of your post and the fact that it entirely hinges on Supremacy 1v1 is very different than your previous post. At least from my perspective, your previous post was dismissive and implied that a 1 unit composition isn’t over powered/bad design because it is easy to defeat. You made it seem simple that all you need is heavy artillery and a meat shield.

In my opinion, the card is essentially an “I win” button in a lot of cases. For some civs it is completely outright. For other civs, they have to completely play around just the threat of it coming in. Additionally, none of your suggestions have a one unit counter, which means upgrade cards wont be as efficient and it will take micro skill to try and counter just a mass of one unit. That seems like horrible design.

Lakota: RR do reduced damage from range resist and caros have a bonus against them at range. Implying you have to use dog soliders, a very limited unit type that can’t be trained from buildings, is acceptable against a spammable barracks unit is… odd.
RR to Svea Caro head to head: Takes ~9.6 shots for RR to kill Caro (1.5 ROF) and ~6.1 for a Caro to kill a RR (2.5 ROF). Since Caros are just over half the resources of RR, RR are effectively countered by svea caros

Aztec: It’s an I win card.

China: It’s an I win card.

Inca: I don’t want to speak for you, but it seems like if they get the card they win. You only discussed winning before it. It’s an I win card.

India: Urumi can only be shipped from the HC. How is that a reasonable counter to a barracks unit? Falcs have a similar issue, you can send a couple every few minutes? Maybe? Mahouts also seem to be very rarely trained by India. Mainly seen through HC cards, if i’m correct.
Mahout head to head (we’ll ignore the higher cost of wood): 6.5 Caros = 1 mahout. Takes ~16.5 shots for a carolean to kill a mahout, or about 32.1 hits in melee . It takes 5.1 hits to kill a carolean (there is splash damage, which is negated in stagger mode).
Mahouts do decently, but they will just melt with a large enough mass. With 17 Caroleans (which shouldn’t be a crazy number to achieve), they can easily kite and kill the equivalent 2.6 mahouts. Let’s round that up a bit. 3 Mahouts is equal in resources to 19.5 caroleans. Caroleans would need to get off 3 shots at 2.5 rate of fire to not take any damage from the Mahouts at all. This isn’t a counter.

I don’t have the time right now to jump into the actual numbers for the rest of your paragraph. Sparknotes: Svea Caros > Brit musk, so they’ll just die.
Portuguese have halbs: whoops, missed it.
Russia can only train halbs in batches of 4 and are completely dead weight outside of this scenario.
Japan: Yumi are good, i’d have to run the numbers. yojimbo is a merc, how is that acceptable for a counter?
Haud: light cannons aren’t as good in this scenario, like flaming arrows. I’d have to run the number on forest prowlers Svea Musks do surprisingly well against skirms, as discussed earlier in this topic.

I understand the card is strong but you cannot base everything on that card, I only play 1v1 so I don’t know how it would be in team but most games never even get to age 4, the civs that maybe can’t do as well against fully upgraded age 4 svea caroleans can certainly do a lot before the game can even get that far, take inca for example when I play vs swedes, I go 2 forward war huts, train spearmen, immediately get 5 from tc big button, I’ve got the chaski and warchief sitting on mines and the spearmen head off to burn torps and catch those vills that are out building torps.

Burning down the torps and catching the vills that are out looking for mines is not that difficult, most civs have a cav shipment in age 2, china for example can send 7 steppe which are very fast with high siege, perfect at destroying torps. All swede players do is make carolean even if they try to defend the torps you just run them around.

the point with musks like with brit is that they replace halbs and are there just to prevent a charge against the artillery, not to fight the caroleans. If it’s age 4 brit can send 3 rockets and spam them from factories, 3 rockets with 50 musk protecting them will do work against caroleans, svea or not. Need to take into account as well that swedes are against the clock, mines will start to run out, blueberries will have finished by age 4, so they will start to have torps that are gathering no gold and just have blackberries at normal gather rate.
Swedes also send a lot of cards for caroleans that could have been used for something else, like snaplock and platoon fire, both age 3 cards, could have potentially been 2000 resources. Another civ could send 1k wood and build 2 tc’s and a powerful merc shipment like jaegers which do work on age 3 caroleans.

My previous point being there are tons of ways to deal with svea if it gets to age 4 but obviously for many civs they do not want to be against age 4 svea caroleans so they have plenty of time to prevent/destroy torps and force swedes to play age 2/3. It is by no means a card that means they win every game especially against aggressive civs where getting to age 4 is very difficult.

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With sweden, you can go age4 at 9 min in 1v1. It’s not very hard with torp eco.

Culv is only available to 9 nations out of 16. If you have to be a certain civ to counter another it is per definition not balanced.

The thing is Caroleons can protect their own artillery extremely well. Most civs dont have the means to counter them effectively. You dont just look at a unit alone you have to take combinations into consideration and even if you do not. Caroleons are one of the best musketeers in game.

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No chief, rifle riders are like the worst unit you can make. They are both a light cav and heavy cav, making them get targeted by like 50-75% of the units in game. The fact caroleons have bonus range damage against heavy cav makes them reck rifle riders.

Also the most common unit compisition of Swedes is caroleon with artillery. This combo is ridiculous as there is no easy way in countering it. Caroleons simply kill the universal artillery counter of heavy cav and light cav also dont far to well both due to usually lower hitpoints making them more vulnurable to arty and the caroleans.

China and Aztecs will get recked by Swedes even age 2 as Swedes simply make their cheap 300 food 100 wood leather cannon which early game is devestating, definatly for Aztecs.

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Not necessarily topic related, but most civs have a culverin equivalent

China: hand mortar
Japan: flaming arrows
India: siege elephants
Inca: huarcas
Aztecs: arrow knights
Haud: light cannon
Lakota: lol they don’t need it.

Out of these, only lakota could be considered to lack one, but since their cav is god tier, they have little problem against Sweden.

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