Inca kallanka is in a bad spot

so the mapuche native unit?

Yes, but just as a standard unit. If Mapuche were ever elevated to be a full civ it could be a shared unit with Inca.

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well, the original Incan Minor bolas was a skirm and the role was perfectly fine because splashy ranged anti-infantry already existed in the form of chakrams, grenadiers, artillery.

The issue was worsened by release date bolas being… bad against cav in melee(!!?) so you had to escort your anticav with anticav (amazing design, absolutely amazing).

I take issue with the way they just cloned the aztec roster, gave them gimmicks, and washed their hands of it. Bolas could have easily fallen into the chakram type role, but instead we got the musket/goon thats bad vs cav in melee.

Edit: I should elaborate more. Yes, technically speaking the incans used bolas vs spanish cavalry - i dont think thats reason enough to force the unit into being anticav when the tad bolas was a skirm already, which was what essentially everyone i talked to expected the incan skirm to be before release.

If they really wish to copy the Aztecs roster (which imo is a better idea) then bolas warrior should be a dragoon just like the ERK, with splash damage & ranged snaring as its uniqueness.

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I think so should give mapuche bolas rider to inca replace bolas warrior

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Yeah bolas or huaraca needs a tag to not be deleted by cannons, like ERK, current inca roster has only 1 unit not hardcountered by artillery making it less value to spend res in these special units since you gonna dienvs cannon all the same, i think if huaraca were ranged shock infantry then comps would be much more varied for the civ and thx to animation hauraca could still eat skirm fire vs heavies so its not easy win to snipe heavies, promoting back and forth and more Kallanka use.

As for more kallankas i think this is good idea too, reduce garrison space if overpop concern but as others pointed out this mechanic is pain in rear anyways and would likely willingly be traded for more access to production buildings.

This is exactly the problem with Inca. They resisted the Spanish for centuries and could have been so much more than just a stone age depiction copied from the Aztecs.

There’s nothing functionally wrong with this role, it just doesn’t make a lot of sense for a bolas. They were weapons used for hunting large animals that were repurposed to be used against cavalry in war. Just because they were poorly implemented doesn’t mean that role isn’t viable.

Why force the Bolas Warrior into that role when the Huaraca already fits the role of area damage skirms that you’re looking for? They should just give up on trying to make it anti-artillery and just focus on it being a skirm-grenadier.

Ultimately, my biggest issue with the Bolas Warrior is that it’s way too hard to distinguish them from Huaracas. So putting them on a horse would fix that.

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You definitely make good points as well, there’s lots of ways the roster could have been adapted. Frankly, 6 units is too few (even azzy gets 7). Zero attempts to make it more interesting or different.

Bolas could be on horseback, or as a skirm, huaraca could be treated more like a grenadier and let the horseback unit take the anticannon role, there could be a javelin unit as has been suggested as an erk replacement, macemen could have been a cuirassier-coyote runner hybrid and act as a slower splashy shock inf, there’s a dozen ways the kallanka units could be far more interesting.

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I’d go further and put it on a horse to make it literally a Cuirassier unit like the Manco Horseman. Even if it was limited to training from the Plaza it would be way more awesome to get something more equivalent to a Tokala Soldier instead of an off-brand Skull Knight.

I’m also not against some aspects being similar to Aztecs. For example, it could make sense to merge Arrow Knights and Jungle Bowmen into a unit shared by Aztec and Inca. Both empires sourced their archers from the jungles on the periphery of their empires. And poison damage would work very well with the anti-artillery role since it would bypass the artillery’s resistance and cause some lingering damage even if the artillery takes out the archer. “Jungle Bowmen” could just be a generic unit that functions like an Arrow Knight with poison available to Aztec, Inca, Maya, Guarani, etc. Inca’s archaic light infantry role could then also be replaced by a generic slinger unit shared with Aztecs and other potential civs.

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Yeah I agree with that. At least give huaraca same treatment of arrow knight, taking half damage from cannons, if not make it a ranged shock infantry. Bolas can be tagged as ranged shock infantry, or just replace with bolas rider. Current bolas is a weird musketeer that still die massively to cannons because of the infantry tag.

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how much of the problem is that the kallanka is also kinda mid.

like its kinda hard to leverage its mechanics since the units are costly and you can’t do instant garrison now.

also they removed the infinite shipments for the kallaka units so you can’t shipment spam them either.

maybe another solution is to allow the kallanka to attack while garrisoned, incentivising training into them. also boost default build limit to 6

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I like the idea to give Inca a powerful cav unit, it is not anachronistic to give them horse or even musket.

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I don’t think Inca needs more units, I like the fact that Inca has unusual units. I don’t want them to get additional units such as goons or cannons or musks. When you make all of the civs similar to each other, you lose the point of having lots of different civs. They are supposed to be different. Rather just a tiny bit of tweaking is needed to probably huaracas and bolas, but must be very careful not to send any unit into OP territory.

A civ being weak versus artillery is ok, like how Russia and theoretically China (but China seems to win vs anything no matter what anyhow) are designed to be weak vs cav, but I think every other civ in the game has more than one unit that isn’t hard countered by artillery like you say, so either bolas or huarca need to not be hard countered by artillery.

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Kinda disagree. A civ having some difficulty countering a unit type is one thing, a civ that has most of it’s roster hard countered by one unit type feels like poor design.

And that’s why the devs gave the Russians the Sovnya Card, in order to make it easier for them to counter cav. They could do the same for Inca and give them a Card to improve their ability to counter artillery.

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That’s seems like a really sensible suggestion - a ranged shock infantry unit.

What about making it ranged shock infantry, you could run around with bola chimu

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That doesn’t really solve the issue of them being very difficult to tell apart from Huaracas.

Good post.

Huaraca < Abus (even against cannons)
Huaraca < Culvrins
Bolas < Carolean
Bolas < Musketeer
Macemen < Samurai
Macemen < Dopple
Jungle Bowen < Skirm

I know that Inca was bullshit when it came out but how did we get here.

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But they also have this:

Chimu Runner >>> Coyote Runner
Chimu Runner > Most Cavalry
Plumed Spearman >>> Pikeman

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Indeed Inca has a good pikeman (also costs more) and a good cav unit. This does not mean the civ should die when the enemy has more than 3 cannons. While chimu are a good cav they do poorly against a cannon mass with nearby units. This is because they have low hp and die from the mass cannon and musk fire. Anyone who has tried to run 50 chimu at a Gat mass knows this. Plumed Spearmen are better than pikes but who really wants to make pikes passed age 3. The Kallanka units are supposed to be the stronger units you make late game that don’t cost wood but they are all subpar.