Inca Llama buff(4 instead of 1) + additional possible changes

For the incas, their bonus is clearly made weaker since the initial 4 sheep seem to be much closer or even scouted already. To make their bonus similar, yet weaker than the Tatar bonus, I suggest they gain 4 Llama rather than just one.


Of course that includes keeping blacksmith infantry upgrades effecting villagers.

All that said, 4 Llama would be great.

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4 Llamas seems a bit excessive. Maybe 2 instead?

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I mean with normal sheep, tatars essentially have +4 sheep - on top of that they gain +2 per town center which heavily helps their mid-game.
That’s not counting possible cows.

I believe a simple +4 on incas is within reasonable balance.

How about one every second TC + the starting Dark Age one?

That would be a little too similar to the tatar bonus while also being not nearly as helpful. -the incas version should help mostly in the dark age and perhaps into the last moments of feudal leading into castle depending on work order.

But inca also have house bonus (and farm bonus if you like)

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While tatars are able to delay farms until they are worth much more, while I figure something similar would be good for incas, I feel the style is different enough in how the endgoal is reached in terms of wood temporarily saved.

Currently the farm bonus is very weak, and needs improvement as well.

Let’s say, in terms of eco, we change incas to 4 Llama and improve team bonus with: farms and mill upgrades build/research 100% faster and add food to farms instantly

Those two eco changes would give their eco an effect similar to Tatars, yet different enough to justify it.
And incas would effectively be spending wood sooner than tatars for a similar effect, even if they do have less houses to worry about, but that is also a double edged sword with the housing armor nerf; because the enemy may destroy such houses and need to destroy less to house you, forcing a similar amount of houses to be created anyways.

I can live with 2 starting llamas and 2 llamas for every age up.

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Now that would also effectively work

  1. All units cost -15% food.
  2. Gold miners generate gold in addition to the mined gold (same mechanic as poles’ stone bonus).
  3. Houses support 10 pop.
  4. Buildings cost -15% stone.

That’s broken instead, look what happened to the Tatars when they had free sheeps in feudal age.

To be honest, Magyars are the ones that need this bonus, replace the scout cavalry 15% cheaper to all military units costing 15% less food. Also, I think changing the UTs can work for them (Recurve Bow to Castle Age and Corvinian Army to Imperial Age).

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You have to think about it from other perspectives as well. Now the player can basically scout 1 of their boars, or find an extra pair of sheep, and then go forward and lame. They basically start with all their sheep found, and can get an extra 4 on top of that if they start with 4 llamas. People will definitely start laming if that happens.

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Llamas also make good scouts for finding boars and berries, so the starting scout cav can just leave immediately. 4 llamas does sound like a lot, maybe 2 would be better. IMO Incas do not need an early game food bonus, they need a late game gold bonus (like Mayans/Malians longer lasting mines, or Aztecs increased relic gold, or Burgundian vineyards). As soon as gold runs low they are dead, since they lack Hussars and their Skirmishers are not impressive.

I don’t know man.

60 food knights → 51 food + free meele attack; this as soon as you hit castle age. Later 51 food paladins supported by HCA with +1 attack and range… both cases sound too dangerous.
While incas eagles going from 20 food → 17 food sounds fair for the weakest eagles and the meso with the worst eco in-game.

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Magyars are like in the same situation as Incas, both without eco bonuses, Magyars are at their worst in castle age because the free attack is just a brief advantage that later the opponent can match up, the Magyars have nothing till late imperial age, plus going paladin and heavy cavalry archer in 1v1 is a fantasy because both are gold intensive units.

Incas tech tree is the widest of the meso and giving a large eco bonus is asking them to be OP (look at Aztecs and Mayans, with more limited tech trees yet with strong eco bonuses and how much frustration cause in 1v1), better give something to their infantry, changing the team bonus to infantry +2 LOS and Barrack technologies 33% cheaper could do a huge difference.

2 starting llamas could be okay-ish to begin with
It’s enough food without any bonus
It’s more like an early aggression bonus because it allows you scout with the llamas and go forward with the eagle scout
Then it would open the door for the old Inca trush and devs will nerf it back 11

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Free attack saves you food and time and feudal; saves you food, gold and time in castle age. Stuff that can be invested on more units. If anything, magyars can deal critical damage in late feudal, and wrap things up in early castle age. While your opponent is always going to be a step behind; and even if he’s not behind militarily or economically, he still has to wait for the tech to finish to research. That’s a window.
Giving -15% food knight line is straight up asking to make them lose blast furnace or paladins or bracer. Because I doubt they are going to rework recurve bow.

The widest tech tree among mesos, which only kicks-in later in imperial age, but they can’t use it most of the time. Incas are a defensive and counter civ. Yet, they lack ways to reach imperial faster and use said tech tree, or gold to sustain their armies.
Aztecs and mayans are strong but not only for their eco. Their military bonuses are strong as well. While incas don’t have any military bonus… and even struggle to research the eagle warrior tech asap in early castle age.

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Another option is for the other 3 Llama to appear upon reaching feudal age, which helps to solve most of the early rush problem, not all, but it may help.

That’s true, but then say me why then we don’t see Magyars being picked now in tournaments that can make that situation happen? KOTD 4 was a good example yet Franks were more picked here, also, Franks literally do everything that Magyars can do but much better, by a massive margin.
btw Magyars currently feels a boring civ.

So Vietnamese and noone say nothing (woodless eco upgrade doesn’t help that much in that aspect), I think is fine give how wide is the tech tree in Imperial, also I already proposed the bonus that you already missed there…

Is the combination of both and look how picked and banned are in pro level, also do you remember why Khmer lost bombard cannon long time ago? civs with large eco bonuses+military bonus+ wide tech tree in imperial= OP civ.

Nah, the only extra help magyars need is something like berries +30% food. That way they’ll feel smoother and there will be no risk of their military power getting nerfed.

First of all, vietnamese is an offensive civ. They are amazing if you go headbutt your opponent with archers and escalate aggression from there. The only scenario where I feel them underwhelming is in closed maps where I’m forced to play passively trying to amass upgraded units and/or booming. Viets need a defensive option in castle age in that case.
Incas can’t do this nor that.
Incas only relevant eco bonus is 10 pop houses.
1 llama = 88 foodzZzZ. Discounted -15% stonezZzZ. Blacksmith-villagers in castle agezZzZ. The last 2 are good for castle drops but that’s impossible unless your opponent is distracted. People are never distracted in middle and higher elo tiers. Not meta. You say they have the widest tech tree among mesos. But they have the weakest eco bonuses, the weakest unique techs of the 3 civs (both andean sling and fabric shields), no military bonus, slowest growth of the 3 civs (both at researching techs and aging up), no army sustain. The worst part is that incas are supposed to be an imperial civ specialized in defense and counters, but can’t even reach imperial age faster. When they get to imperial, they don’t have the resources to counter the opponent. Especially when their core barrack/a.range/castle costs food and gold. Incas can’t fulfill their role. Which is funny because even when you overcome all these obstacles, after getting pushed back once it’s super difficult to make a comeback. While poles, mayans, burgundians, huns, slavs, ethiopians can comeback after getting pushed back N times against someone with the same skill. And they are not civs focused on counters. Imagine incas as a counter civ that can’t make a comeback after 1 push.
Giving incas -15% food for all units and a gold bonus it’s fair imo.

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