Incan Supay Ceremony (Maceman-spawning) is really low value ever since the Macemen rework

And I assume that’s not intentional! Used to be that Macemen cost 33% more resources and 50% more population than before but when they got reworked to be worse and cost 2-pop their ceremony got left as if it was spawning much stronger units than it really is. If you compare it to the Skull Knight Ceremony (Garland War), that one is running at a rate closer to what the Macemen should be because it’s also a 2-pop melee inf unit: 421s with 1 vill on Plaza for a Skull Knight, compared to 918s! for 1 vill on Plaza for a Maceman.

The devs are already reworking Maceman shipments to accommodate the lowered value-per-unit such as having removed the 500f cost on the age 3 card in the March patch so I hope that something like that can be applied to the Maceman Ceremony as well, maybe even just matching the Skull Knight timer for Macemen due to their very similar base stats (and even identical base siege dmg). What do y’all think?


Have you reported this as a bug? This is almost definitely an oversight, leaving the train time the same from the original macemen which has been reduced in cost by like 50% and now reduced in pop. Inca will always struggle to produce as fast as aztec though just because priests are better on the plaza. The train time card which improves infantry train rate by 45% also effects this dance if you didn’t know that.


I think the Inca deserve something more than just a standard unit from the Plaza Ceremony. It would be great to see a powerful unit like a Manco Horseman be the unit that is spawned by the ceremony.


Yeah the train time card needs to be kept in mind so I suppose bringing Macemen down straight to Skull Knight territory would be too much alongside that, but I don’t think this is a bug in the traditional sense. More of an oversight perhaps?

I mean the train time card has always worked and now macemen are much cheaper and less population than they were before, taking into account that aztec priests are worth more than priestesses the card sort of makes them equivalent with priestesses but the units themselves are now comparable so there definitely should be a much faster train time for macemen. Compare 3 aztec priests to 4 inca priestesses and that’s the same villager equivalent on the plaza but the train time for macemen remains far slower, macemen are also still worse than skull knights and don’t have an ability like they do.

I also think the units obtained from the ceremonies should not be trainable at other buildings.

I personally wish it could be an artillery unit for Incans, similar to Light Cannons but maybe closer in stats to Culverins. Also, have this unit replace Field Cannons from Thunderbolts of Illapa.

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Are yall trying to get inca, the most defensive and turtling native civ that already generates res and xp out of thin air from various means, the ability to spawn a friggin light cannon /culv out of thin air to make the civ basically unpushable outside of trade monopolies?

Out of all the things suggested, this one is just abusable as all hell. Maybe, maybe an inf 2x send for 500c or something and fixing macemen might be “ok” but seriously anyone whos played vs light cannons know what OP they when massed, and yall want inca to get them for free. It would break treaty teams and even 1v1s more than soldado, giant grens, well basically anything. Light cannons rock hard enough as is, when haude weak(not so much treaty) eco cant sustain. Pair that with inca eco and its gg.

I now understand steve bucheimi in spy kids quote “do you think god hides up in heaven, for he too fears his creations?” Inca could use a rework but spawning free artillery, the best artillery, when the civ already has good military and is only weak to late game artillery, is going in the wrong direction

The Big button come at a cost.
Having Villagers on the Plaza means they don’t gather resources, which is also the cost of Ceremony units.
Strictly speaking, neither out of thin air nor free.

If it were set to still take 100 seconds to spawn 1 Incan Cannon when 10 Priestesses and 15 Villagers were on the Plaza, I don’t think it would be a serious problem. Except in treaty games, it is difficult to fill the Plaza full with gatherers, so the time will be even longer.

Nor can we be sure of the stats for this Incan Cannon. Maybe it will be weak enough to be used only against artillery and ships, and it takes 2.5 attacks to do about as much damage as Culverin’s 1 attack, etc.

However, I would support Thunderbolts of Illapa deciding how many Incan Cannons to provide over time, like X units every Y minutes until Z minutes. The shipment of the fixed 4 cannons I think is where the Incas holding artillery might make people feel OP.

Lakota for tokala soldier, Aztec for skull knight, Haud for travois: these are civ unique units that cannot be trained from military buildings. It’s strange to train macemen from plaza indeed.


Definitely not in favor of giving Inca light cannons. It should remain a Haud only unit. In fact I think thunderbolts of somebody big button should be replaced with something else. Instead, make Huaraca able to work against artillery by doing something, such as making them not take bonus damage from artillery or increasing their siege resistance, or increasing their range. Essentially by not changing the plaza train time to correspond to the units cost and population and adjusted statistics, you have nerfed the supay ceremony. It should probably be reported under ‘bug’. I noticed I put a bunch of villagers on the plaza and it was much worse than having the villagers just gather resources for me to buy macemen myself. Macemen seem to train ultra slowly from production buildings though, slower than any unit I have seen. Maybe the devs are basically making sending the reduced training time card mandatory; I didn’t know this helped plaza units, does it help tokala, skull and travois as well?

Well, Maya (revolutionary) can train it.

That’s a good idea.
Perhaps, then, the unique ceremony unit of the Incas could be a kind of rifle unit that has a range of 20, using firearms looted from the Spanish.
Whereas the Aztecs had Arrow Knights to perform a skirmisher-like work with the long range of 30 when needed, the Incas had no such units.

Lakota and Aztec can buff their trainspeeds of Tokala and Skull Knights through various means but Travois cannot be increased iirc.

Fencing/Riding school dont boost them; they have a penalty to avoid any effect of the card. The only one unit that was boosted was warrior priests, but the effect was removed too

I wasn’t saying they can send cards to buff the spawn rate, just that there are ways that one can do so.

Even if inca send train time card though, the maceman still trains slower than a skull knight with equivalent vills on the plaza despite being an inferior unit and having wasted a card to improve train time.

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