Indians & Goths

Hera said that Goths are a good, useful, mid-tier civ today.

+ Jaguar Warriors deserve a buff, because they are useless, they’re produced sooo slow and he knows how strong Aztecs are.

The most important upgrades are wood upgrades and town center upgrades - You don’t get Wheel and HandCart fast because they’re expensive and you need villagers.

Farm upgrades are not that important - You delay Horse Collar much more than Double-bit Axe while people don’t usually think about Heavy Plow.

This is funny 11

and Indians are completely garbage against Goths, Incas and Meso.

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Don’t you get tired to repeat your argument ever and ever again?

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Heavy Plow is a secret Wood upgrade, since it saves a lot of Wood on Farm building throughout the game.

Not if it is a good argument.

No they are not.

They are, everyone says that, expect you. You never survive Goth spam or fast imp Eagles with Indians - El Dorado Eagles kill Hand Cannons, - You don’t even have Chemistry when your enemy has full Eagles/Huskarls

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Playing against Goth is like playing against Hoang.

You know what comes but he will eat your TC.

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You forgot the last mode:
3. :popcorn:

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Atleast that’s not what I ever said
What i have always said is:

  • Knight,
    Halberdier anti-elephant bonus,
    Crossbow upgrade,
    Archer stacking,
    Leitis gold price buff,
    and Pike-line anti-camel buffed bonus
    IS BROKEN NERF THIS

  • TK, Samurai, Jags & Shotel price,
    HC squishiness & exhorbitant price
    Steppe Lancer squishiness & exhorbitant price
    CA & Gbeto frame delay,
    Genitour pointlessness,
    Elephant Archer ineffectiveness,
    Ballista Elephant huge price,
    Non-heavy Camel attack/bonus,
    Cannon Galleon projectile speed,
    War Elephant food price & upgrade price,
    Siege Tower ineffectiveness,
    Genoese Crossbowman,
    Orjan Gun damage,
    Madrasah uselessness,
    Orthodoxy uselessness,
    Chatras ineffectiveness,
    Artillery stone price,
    Zealotry gold price,
    Atheism uselessness,
    Faith price,
    Nomads pointlessness (Forest Nothing players won’t read till here to object anyway xP),
    Elite Cataphract pierce armor,
    and Longswordsmen, as a whole,
    IS TERRIBLE BUFF THIS

So, as you can evidently see, not “EVERYTHING”, for either category.

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Boyars? (20 characters)

Although they can be very aggressive with their new bonuses, the reason why they have such bad defenses (i.e. not stone walls) is because a lot of civs just have no means to deal with them in late game so balance has to prevent goths from just walling until they can spam their units.

First of all, he wasn’t aware that they lack both at the same time. But irrespective of that you can’t repeat that single example each time you don’t agree with him. If you go nitpicking you’ll find something about each top player. That argument is just ridiculous.

I know you like Indians and nobody wants that to take away from you. But this doesn’t change that Indians have a very bad matchup against goths. You can try to do someting very aggressive in castle age but in imp chances aren’t great. Once you face huskarl+pike spam it gets very difficult for any cav civ, especially when you don’t have knights.

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In my (probably only) matchup with goths against Indians I got in trouble because of the Indian HC. Are you sure Goths should wait for perfusion rather than try to kill Indians in the castle age?

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There are other examples. Like the time he tried to go cav + arbs as Slavs, or the famous pause to check artillery’s cost (tho he is far from being the only to need help on this one 11)

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If you both are in imp just raid as much as you can because hcs can’t catch up with huskarls’ mobility. But yes, you can totally start your goth spam in castle age. In a lot of cases this is indeed the better alternative. Depends on how the game plays out.

Not sure Goths need a nerf.

Not that this is conclusive evidence, but I just watched the KOTD3 game between Sitaux and Mr. Yo. Yo is obviously the favorite and game 1 he goes Goth all in lame and early forward barracks and Sitaux as the Frank’s countered it masterfully. So if a pro player using the Goth strategy pretty much optimally agaisnt a weaker player can lose, then I dont think Goths are OP.

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Interestingly, Goths have 2nd highest winrate in Arabia in high ELO players.
I am not sure Goths deserve nerf. But Goths is weak for high level players is an old argument. They got decent position in even high level players. And they are obviously Top 10 pick/ban civ in KOTD3.

Ask to any pro like Hera or Viper and both will say that Goths are too predictable at their levels, the buffs helped them to be more viable and stronger than before, but not OP.

At lower ELO they can be overwhelming because of their spamming capabilities and early agressivity.
Can say this even when they aren’t my favorite civ to play.

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