Indians Unique Units

Ele archers aren’t knights nor melee elephants (less DPS than no upgrades knights/ele, even after bodkin arrow), so they will require more numbers before being effective. Even if this buff was ever implemented, people would still go straight for camels because it’s still less risky than a greedy boom for a not so good unit.

Btw this bonus is just waiting to be nerfed again, so I wouldn’t count too much on it 11

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point was, that the comparison to goths isn’t a good one, because Indians can boom more easily then goths. even without their shore bonus they can boom better.

Yes, but the ele archer is still a worse unit. Basically this change wouldn’t make it too good, but at least if you feel like doing something different you’re not going to gimp yourself by massing them too slowly.

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because one is a support unit and one is intended to be the core of the civs army.

So you agree with me ele archers are worse as the bulk of the army but being able to boom into them would be dangerous?

Not needing a castle to supplement your army is nice so it would make the ele archer better at that too.

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I actually think the Indian civ does need a bit of a rework. I think any unit that’s just supposed to be an emergency 1 unit drop is kind of a shame.

Indians are supposed to be kind of a mix between Saracens and Persians. They get guilds and techs similar to both, have TC bonuses to facilitate boom potential, have elephant UUs and are heavily camel based. I get the feeling Indians are supposed to be Persians but with Camels and gunpowder instead of knights. It’s a really cool idea.

However, Persians can go for the all in Elephant strategy. Indians can’t really do that. I think it’s a shame. I mean of all the Elephant UUs, Indians are by far the worst - more like ranged battle elephants than a straight up Elephant UU. I actually wouldn’t mind a big buff to the stats of the UU in exchange for the cost. I should be terrified of these elephants getting out of hand like I do with the Persians.

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why would they? WE are awful.

and yet they are a top tier civ despite EA being awful. what would you like to see nerfed so they can actually use EA?

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Wut.

War Elephants, when massed, are virtually unstoppable. They’re so incredibly population efficient…halbs hard counter them, but it still takes four halbs to kill a single war elephant.

That means that if they have more than 25 war elephants, they’re at the brink of being impossible to stop. You can’t make enough halbs anymore. 35? 45? It’s just gg at that point.

War Elephants are borderline OP, limited only by their insane cost.

I’d like to reiterate that Elephant Archers are already decent when used properly. A tiny number mixed into archers or hand cannons can multiply their durability while sacrificing very little.

You can afford one elephant archer for the price of two hand cannoneers. But for that cost, they provide an additional 32 elite skirmisher hits worth of health. For example, a group of 40 hand cannoneers can take 200 elite skirmisher hits. By contrast, a group of 36 hand cannoneers and 2 elite elephant archers can take 264 elite skirmisher hits, while costing you no more resources.

In terms of lost damage output, you’ll have lost 10.6 dps, from an original total of 196, or about 5% of your damage output.

In other words, you’ve sacrificed 5% of your DPS for 32% more durability. Perhaps more importantly, while that extra health is being depleted, your dps remains the same. So if you compare it to a fight of equal forces, they’ll end up losing a substantial amount of their DPS by the time you lose any at all, and when you do finally start losing damage, you’ll have an advantage that will snowball to a much larger victory than you might expect.

Mind you, this is against Elite Skirmishers, which inexplicably do 8 damage per hit to Elephant Archers. Against Arbalests, the results are rather more extreme. They do 1 damage per shot to EAs, meaning instead of taking 240 shots to kill the 40 hand cannoneers, you now take 840. You sacrifice 5% of your damage output for a 450% increase in durability.

They’re basically rams that are fast enough to move with your army, actually shoot back, and aren’t killable by villagers or random pidgeons that fly by. Plus you can heal them if you feel like it.

monks say hi.

and so incredibly slow and hard countered by monks.

and what was your opponent doing while you massed 25 units that cost 200 food and 75 gold each? not to mention the cost of the elite upgrade.

so why doesn’t anyone ever make them?

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Because they’re crazy expensive.

Monks only work if they’ve got small numbers of them. Let them get to a critical mass and the monk micro becomes too much. I just…here. Look at viper’s opinions, not mine. https://youtu.be/LDUuDRpnWXs?t=2912

if they were that good they would be made despite their cost.

yeah exactly. “their slow and easily converted”. they are good only when you get to the point you can spam them non stop.
ie. team games in the late imperial age where you have trade.

guess what? when people talk about balance, team games are an after thought.

and no. the monk micro doesn’t become to much at all. you don’t need to convert all them. just enough to disrupt them. even getting 5 can be a huge swing. convert 5 of them and all of a sudden youve taken away 20% of their fighting force + turned it against them. the extras can be dealth with easily by the rest of your army.

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Nonetheless, he puts them at A-S tier, which is a long ways from being awful.

and Hera puts them at D tier.


and both bring up the same problems. cost, cost to tech to, and counters.

it isn’t that good. viper may consider them good but we’ve seen viper win with whatever viper wants to build.

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War Elephants + Kamandaran Xbows is a pretty good combo. Xbows take out halbs and monks.

LOL Except EArchers.

And this is why I sugested give EA bonus against Siege. If your opponenet see this comp, will stop making archers and will go for cav (not ideal against Indians) or Siege. Siege Onager will flat this whole army with ease. You are forced to have meele units close to this army to kill siege, or have expensive BBC. But if the EA will have bonus witch help them kill those onagers, now you can free your Camels and Hussars and raid, and with EA anti-building bonus you can even not make your own siege.

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They don’t need to be buffed, just to give them a viable situational use and purpose, nothing too broken.

It could be enough to give them a siege armor, to make it different from mangudais.

Its really difficoult to do, we dont have Siege witch deal Siege damage. Its all just meele (Onager, BBC, Ram) or pierce (Scorpion) damage.
And even then what this kind of hypotethical armor give you? Point is, they should be able to take down onager faster, because the onager is a threat to the HC and Skirms. Theyr increased survivability will not help in this role.
And they will be different to the Mangudai. Mangs can activly seek and destroy enemy siege, EA cannot do this, because is too slow and has too little firepower. Siege can try to run. Cannot outrun them, but has bigger chance.

Rams do anti-Siege bonus damage, so you do have it.