It was my firm believe that the Indians was the civ to make cavalry ordinated civs cry. Franks spam Paladins. Indian spam imperial camels and eat them alive. But since they lose the last cavalry armor tech, are Indians still a civ to make cavalry civs cry?
Do the Indians need to do additional bonus damage with their camels to make cavalry civs cry? Or perhaps bonus armor against other cavalry units for their camels. So in addition to being good camels they also take less damage from knights/paladins and regain their crown as a civ that’s a nightmare for cavalry civs.
Basically, if you playing as Franks vs Indians, cavalry becomes next to useless fighting Indians. A hard counter civ.
I saw guys saying Franks were too strong. So, don’t they need a super hard counter civ to put them in their place? So should the Indians not be buffed even more vs cavalry to punish a person for picking Franks?
Have you? Indian Heavy Camels are some of the worst, and even after spending 1200 food + 600 gold the Imperial Camel becomes slightly better than generic camels. They are far from the best camel civ, with Saracens, Berbers and Byzantines all performing better against enemy cavalry without requiring massive investment in upgrades.
Indian Camels were once designed to be versatile, serving as the knight replacement for the only stable civ without knights. Unfortunately this was lost because so many players want to blindly spam cavalry (especially in team games) and complained about Indians hard countering their build (as it should).
So you are trying to tell me that indian camels dont kill paladins? ok
Saying byzantines and berbers are better because they are cheaper…thats not the same.
I mean don’t missunderstand me. I don’t think indians are op. They are overall maybe average…but buffing their camels wouldn’t be the play. Then u have the same in teamgames like 1 year ago or whenever they got the nerf.
Don’t forget they also get bonusdmg vs buildings which others don’t
I should be more clear. Indians are a good civ overall due to their economy. Just their camels are disappointing. I don’t think the civ need a pure buff, but their camels should definitely be stronger even if that means their economy becomes slightly weaker.
I’m guessing a lot of their wins are in Castle Age, where their lack of Plate Barding has no effect and they don’t need to save up 1200 food + 600 gold just to make their camels decent. In Castle Age they are strong, great boom potential and free pierce armor. I find ending the game before Imperial dissatisfying when their civ bonuses all point to hand cannoneer + imp camel as their intended composition.
Once again. THey rip paladins apart. What else do u want? And no, the civ overall is disappointing, thats it…not the camels… or at least in 1vs1 they are disappointing.
Camels are supposed to beat cav thats it…and they are doing that pretty fine.
Paladins die to them easily and the upgrade to paladin is more expensive than the imperial upgrade.
You also realise that they get 2 Pierce armor for free. So how is missing plate armor that terrible?
Btw. this is the main issue and not that the camels are weak. Civs which only have 1 real option like koreans are just terrible designed. It’s not the play to make them so strong that you go every game for them and make the balance of the game terrible.
For most civs that’s true. However Indians were designed from the beginning to allow camels to be more versatile. They lack knights, so the camels must be able to fill that role to some extent. This is why Imperial Camels have higher base attack, building bonus damage, and HP to allow raiding and holding up reasonably well against non-counter units. At least that was the case when they had 5 Pierce Armor and 3 Melee Armor, but 4/2 is not enough.
The expensive camels cannot even survive against mass skirmishers, taking 3 damage per hit (previously 2, and IMO should be 1 if Imperial Camel had 6 PA like Cavalier or Scouts). This is important because if you go Hand Cannons/Crossbows/Elephant Archers/Cav Archers the enemy is going to make Elite Skirms. Enemy archers and defensive buildings absolutely shred Imperial Camels. You’re basically forced to make Hussars instead of Camels, which makes the civ less unique, and the Hussars are not even good, missing 1 melee armor.
I don’t mean to direct this whole rant at you, I just think Indians have lost their identity. Their decent win rate does not mean they are in a good place. It just indicates that they have a good eco and access to camels, in an era where rushing with cavalry dominates most games.
On another note, outmacroing an opponent is part of the Indian long game. They can get away with villager losses unmatched by other civilizations, while maintaining a steady flow of villager production. Add to that their unique tech, and you see a civilization built to deal with cavalry in the long game.
Indians have the highest winrates across the board, they definitely don’t need buffs.
Anyway, I feel like Berbers, Byzantines, Japanese, even Lithuanians are harder counters to cavalry civs. That’s just my opinion of course, Indians dont have anything going for them until imp camel, and that’s not a unit you will want for 1v1 anyway, you’d rather go CA.
Objectively speaking the nerf made a year ago toned down the Imperial Camel resistance vs archers from 32 arbalest shots to just 26, is still better than ordinary heavy camel that just takes 23 arbalest shots, but Saracen heavy camels take up to 28 shots (Saracens, however, don’t get the strong economy as Indians, not even close).
The Imperial camel pre nerf wasn’t that OP vs archers but Indians have really strong boom, and Camels are overall cheaper, faster, and faster to get a critical mass running up, plus the extra attack vs buildings, which makes them wayy too frustrating to deal in your base. the nerf was really needed, camels can’t be good as paladins in TG.
Exactly, and the +2 PA civ bonus is just bringing Imp Camels up to knight/cavalier’s base PA. They don’t need an achilles heel of missing Plate Barding, that negates the benefit and intent of the civ bonus, and means their camels are weaker than Poles cavalry when facing archers or building fire. Basically they fall over if an arrow touches them, but unlike Poles the Indians are paying full price for these crippled units.