Infantry unique unit buff to balance champions + supplies

samurai 10% speed bonus, to 1.1 base

woad raider 10+ hp, so 75(65) and 90(80) elite

beserk +1 P armor for elite (2,2) beserkergang adds 1 P armor as well

aztec warrior +2 armor for elite, so 4,1 base, to accentuate the units utility againts melee enemies

all others i would leave the same,

these two units need absolutely no buffs. nor do their civs

and this unit could use buffs, but you’d absolutely need to nerf the absolute best civ elsewhere.

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This is an interesting proposal.
Do you have any ideas for complementary Aztec nerfs?
I suspect removing any one of the Aztec civ boni world be an over-nerf, and I can’t think of a technology removal which would do enough without doing too much to merf the Aztecs.

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Buffs to 4 of some of the best civs in the game, simply “for reasons”. . Lol no

If anything i think only the samurai can get buffed. Aztecs would need a big nerf. Likely the same for vikings and celts but not as extreme.

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Some infantry UU might not the best but I think you just precisely mentioned those 4 which are either totally fine (jags, samurai) or already very strong (woads, berserks)

Really? You suggest massive buffs to berserk, which is one of the best infanrtry UU in the game. And not only that, but you also remove their only weakness - archers, so we arrive at one-unit-kill-all situation.

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given the increased pierce armor to berserks they would still go down in 4 shots from hc, arbalesters would one shot kill with 25 units(a modest number)

to be fair i also think some of these civs cavalry should be nerfed further, vikings shouldnt have cavalier imo and celts shouldnt have hca, paladin and cavalier,

maybe down the line they could add a type of supplies tech for civs with the worst knights, example, vikings losing cavalier but having cheaper castle age knights all in imperial age only

idk its just a thought

Sorry, but no. I can’t understand how you want to buff berserkers and woad raiders (the most usable infantry UU besided huscarl) and notbuff shotels or karambit.

I agree with the samurai buff, though. And for aztecs, I think buffing Jaguar speed to be faster than champs would do

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did u miss the point of the thread?

celts and viking champions being cheaper due to supplies and with inherent civ bonuses make them almost too good not to make

unique units are mostly restricted to being made out of a castle, because of this, for balance reasons it’s good to buff them slightly to make them offer a unique use given their restriction (made from castle)

shotels and karambits have their own niches, shotels extremely fast creation time while having fast speed and high attack

karambits also have fast creation time, speed and when outnumbering opponents as they should, they have a distictive advantage

karambits as they are, beat woads with equal resources, as does the magyar hussar, and even some archers with no mico

champs have 3 uses in this game right now

  1. anti trash unit
  2. anti eagle unit
  3. anti huskarl unit

for the most part they rarely see play at the highest level.
woads and berserks are literally better then champions.

you mean like the fact that woads are insanely fast and great raiders? or the berserk which literally wins 1v1 against the cavalier, let alone other melee units?

and yet i see woads more then i see either of these two units. berserks too.

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you really underestimate champs

really? if they are so good elsewhere why don’t they see use elsewhere? literally nothing i’ve seen in 20 years of this game tells me they are supposed to fill any other role, except maybe Malians and Goths.

after supplies was introduced almost everyone concluded infantry unique units needed a small buff to compensate for the reduced cost of champions,

the buffs ive mentioned are modest for the most part

the buff for the berserk are locked behind the elite upgrade and the berserkergang unique tech, vikings have one of the worst stables lacking bloodlines, speed and last armor, the extra pierce armor for the unique unit only is of good taste

if u have a better idea please bring it forth and dont just criticize others suggestions

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4 shots assuming those HC hit, as for arbs, you’d be giving Berseriks the same pierce armor as a fully upgraded Paladin. 7. they already have insane advantages over melee as is, they don’t need advantages over archers.

seeing as i can maybe recall 5 total times i have seen vikings or celts go for any of these, those aren’t much in the way of nerfs.

yes, but it doesn’t matter, go look at the top rated civs by pros. guarantee you Vikings, Aztecs, and Celts are all top 10 civs. you want to buff civs? go after those who need the love, not the best of the lot.

Modest? you’re literally tripling the base pierce armor of Berserks, almost doubling how many archer shots it takes to kill (from 15 to 25).
you’re giving woads an extra 12.5-15% HP, on a unit that is already likely the most made Infantry UU in the game, aside from the Huskarl.
and your buff for JW literally triples/doubles its base armor. on the already best civ in the game.
meanwhile you literally ignore some of the worst infantry unique units in the game, like the Gbeto.

and yet they are still regarded as one of the best civs in the game today. and no, the extra PA only makes it harder to kill a unit that is already a beast, you’re literally removing its only weakness. it already beats Infantry and Cavalry as is.

yeah - if you want to buff Infantry Unique Units, start with the Civs and Unique units that actually need love, or propose realistic nerfs to the already very strong civs you’re buffing that will matter. removing Cavalier/Paladin/HCA ain’t going to do anything to Celts or Vikings.

for example
Bulgarians are a civ in desperate need of love and one change i would consider for their UU is making Baghains affect their dismounted Unique Unit.
the Samurai i would bump up the base speed to where you suggested and increase their base damage by 1.

but if you’re buffing Vikings, Celts, and Aztecs, you need to come up with realistic nerfs for them as well.

they’re a late imp unit. not many pro games go to late imp. You also wouldn’t see them much in team games. I don’t know what’s happening in your games.
According to T90 viking champs can compete with berserkers -which you praised so lavishly just a few posts ago- with the unit choice being 50-50.

please stop.
I never said anything about what Champs are “supposed to be/do”, and the devs didn’t have sufficient foresight to see what the meta was going to be when they decided on the stats. Champs are just the thing champs are. There is no underlying design.

they clear bases, they kill everything when they have a sufficient numerical advantage. Champs can kill you if you’re not taking initiative, or if you don’t have enough army, even if the unit you’re going for is supposed to counter Champs (eg Arbalests)
Champs kill rams, halbs, villagers, TCs, other champs, Skirmishers, Shotels, Malian Champs, Huscarls, Eagles, war wagons (if numbers are favourable), camayukes, condos, Karambits, Konnics… Some of these not particularly well, but then sometimes they don’t need to.

Perhaps at a high level champs are mostly a deterrence. Would you ever go for a ram-halb push against Vikings?

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even when games were going to late imp they weren’t seen that often.

except one unit has regen. and if i am put in a spot where i have to go one or the other, i’ll go berserks more often. they are after all faster and better overall.

you could literally say this about any unit in the game.

so basically your argument is if your not prepared the opponent can kill you. they could do the same thing if they came at me with knights or archer line units as well.

I’ll give you rams, halbs, skirms, huskarls, eagles, condos, kamyuks, karambits.
Shotels, it comes down to who gets the first hit.
Champs - you’re not going to trade cost effectively and better options exist.
Malian Champs - yep i’ll give you that one.
War Wagons i have my doubts on and Konniks again, i’m assuming you mean dismounted only.

absolutely not, and not because of viking champs. just basic berserks would be enough.

youre going off topic with this, this is about champions+ supplies and infantry unique units, gbetos have nothing to do here, nor bulgarians, , pros play mostly in arabia and a few other maps, perhaps some civs are really better than others in these specific maps, that doesnt detract from my suggestions on this thread

u want to buff the konnik? lol , unit costs less than a knight while having two lives, able to defeat cavalry counters, even surviving after being converted with heresy,

lol buff konnik …

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i’m sorry. is Gbeto not an Infantry unique unit?

and this is an infantry civ with a semi infantry unique unit.

so does most the community. Arabia is played 60% of the time.

except these civs are pretty much excellent everywhere, and don’t need buffs (except Japanese, fine with that).

and the civ is so strong that it has a 46% winrate, and is played less then 1.5% of the time.


and it hasn’t seen play in KotD3 yet, nor been picked, nor been banned.

truly a civ we should ignore. now i don’t think buffing the Konnik is the answer, and if you see my buffs thread i’m in favor of buffing Bulgarians early game a bit, but the fact is, that you are focusing on the way wrong civs to be buffing.
you should be focusing on civs who need actual love, and you can buff their UU without hurting overall game balance, instead you say to ignore those civs, all while buffing civs like Aztecs (banned 40 times, more then the next 3 races put together), and involved in 98% of all civ drafts (#1 overall)
Vikings (involved in 93% of all civ drafts, #2 overall)
and Celts (involved in 75% of all civ drafts, #8 overall).
(for the record, that is also the 3 highest infantry civs in the game, including the two best civs in the game, and you want to buff all of them).

nope, never said that

gbetos are not a unit too similar with the militia line, thats why they have no place in this thread,

other civs need love too im sure, but this thread is just specifically looking at infantry civs where their champion + supplies is too similar or a tad better than the civs unique unit,

thats why i suggested some minor buffs, if you dont like it and are completely against it thats cool, now im done arguing with you

but you aren’t suggesting minor buffs. and frankly, again, these civs are already some of the best civs in the game - so if you’re going to buff them, suggest some realistic nerfs to them.