Condos are not a fair comparison since they a team unit, same as Genitours.
theyâre still a UU. in 1v1 theyâre a UU like the shiv, camel scout or slinger, all vastly better
kipchaks are shared units? howâs them apples?
As one of the comments mentioned, I was also talking about this on OrnLuâs discord now. The gimmick of the samurai is very partial. Anti-unique-unit is a bad concept since:
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As a melee unit, they do not realistically counter archer and naval UUs
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They wreck weak Karambit Warriors and weak SVR, but not Champions and Paladins (although it is true that Japanese have options for those in the forms of HCA and Halbs respectively).
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Some UUs do not receive this armor class by design, like Imperial Camel.
I would prefer Samurais to have the Leitis gimmick, since it helps them overall. The Standard and Elite Samurai receiving +1 and +2 attack on top of that. In addition, I would also like Samurais to have a decent (say +2/+3 or +3/+4) attack bonus vs Condos and increased attack bonus vs eagles. This Samurai will be generally useful against melee units (as opposed to melee unique units).
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i think one or the other, ignoring armour (especially with that attack speed) is absolutely massive vs melee civs
so either let it ignore armour OR buff it in other fields ie higher dmg + bonus vs eagles
remember ignoring armour is averaging +4 damage in melee fights, and very often +6 vs cavalry. couple that to the massive attack speed, all of this for free (unlike wootz) and without the weakness to halbs + cost of leitis
i dont see the point of the buff v condos? i cant believe condos are doing anything serious vs japanese
I thought that since Japanese have weak heavy cavalry, they need something more vs Condos, which they had in the form of anti-UU bonus. They of course do not need much, because of that super attack speed.
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Iâd go with Karambit
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yeah that makes sense, i thought with FU HCA, arbs, or just the very short power spike on condos that japanese would be ok. but i guess its not a problem if samurai are better vs them, they are UU (even if theyâre shared) so they still take bonus damage from samurai dont they?
This is an option, but Samurai are already decent where they can engage, and this doesnât really fix the problem of Japanese Halbs and Champs performing a very similar role more cheaply. Theyâre also good enough against most high-armor UUs (like Teutonic Knights) that giving them ignore armor on top of bonus damage just seems overkill.
IMO if the Samurai is changed in any way, it should be something that addresses their weakness vs. ranged UUs. If the devs donât want to rework the unit with something like a toggle mechanic, +1-2 PA and +10-15% speed would go a long way to make it more viable, while preserving its weakness to generic heavy cavalry and anti-infantry units.
This is actually dropped. So against TKs, they deal +13 damage simply on the account of ignoring armor. They do not get additional +12 on account of having attack bonus vs UUs.
SoâŠturning Samurai into powered up Dravidian champions? Thatâs rough because with your proposal, TK is their best matchup and theyâll be far worse vs every other UU (especially units like Berserks and Huskarls, which are some of the few units itâs actually worth specifically making Samurai for). They wonât be worth making vs. cav since Japanese have arguably the best halbs, and their champs are high-powered enough that you donât need another âsuper-infantryâ unit that fills the same role (kind of like how Urumi acts like a super-champ but doesnât actually add much utility beyond what the champ can do and shares the same weakness).
Overall itâs just a reshuffling of their bonuses in a way that isnât needed and doesnât really address their niche use in a compelling way. Iâd like to see a little more effort to make their anti-UU shtick viable before resorting to a bonus thatâs already used for melee units by 2 other civs.
one of the best UU when mass
Which happens almost never, judging by Burmese win and play rate. 
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Tbf this applies to a lot of civs. Tatars have extra arrow resistant hussars and keshiks. Britons. Lith with bonus dmg paladins and leitis. Mongols. Drav. Arguably the konnik is a buffed cavalier. Celt champs and woads. Heck even TK and champs And the list goes on.
The samurai would be a more pop efficient, easier to tech into âsuper infantryâ. And if anything it makes sense of all the civs that Japanese spam their UU since people associate Japanese with samurai. Even if it isnât totally accurate. It makes more sense than franks spamming taxmen, but currently youâre much more likely to see taxmen then samurai. So what if Japanese champs become redundant? Itâs better than the other way aroundâŠ
I really hope they change this. I donât know what the intention was here. Like what were the Devs planning for the urumi to be? What is the urumiâs intended purpose?
What is the design point of medical corps?
Arambai used to make the Burmese just another Fc uu civ they work great as a unit to pump out while booming but otherwise what the civ really needs is a switch to the castle and imperial unique tech Manipur cavalry should be a castle age tech howdah should be in imp.
Most of these UUs that are particularly strong either have essential functions that the generics donât (Mangudaiâs Siege bonus, Konnikâs 2 lives, Woadâs Speed, CKN/Kipchak arrows), or have improved stats in a class where even minor stat increases can make a big difference (Longbow)âŠAnd Urumiâs just badly designed, we all know that. Even as a frequent Drav player itâs only worth making them if the opponent is dumb and goes single comp infantry (and you havenât researched Wootz yet). Giving Samurai the Leitis ability improves its performance in some cases over where it is now, but doesnât really expand the role of the unit beyond what a champ can do. It also degrades its performance significantly in some cases (e.g. Goes from +12 to +2 vs. Huskarls), so I would question whether thatâs even a significant net improvement of the unit.
I broke it down in another thread, but the cost/time advantage of going Samurai over swordsman is quite overstated, and is eroded very quickly by the Samuraiâs higher cost (also assumes you have Castle(s) for production and that arenât in a hurry to make trebs/research UTs on arriving in Imp). The pop efficiency thing kind of makes sense (even now) in teamgames where youâre not worried about running out of gold, but even so, everywhere the new Samurai will do well, so will champs, which are cheaper and can be replenished more quickly.
Iâm with you all the way on making Samurai more viable, and UUs more seen in general, I just donât think this is the ideal way to go about it. + Speed and PA and keeping the current bonus seems like a low hanging solution thatâs at least worth trying.
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Oh then after seeing this clip:
I think Arambai can be one of the best UUs at that point, but the problem is getting there for burmese.
60 shotels dont melt everything. Neither do 60 huskarls or 60 rattans or 60 ghulams or 60 kipchacks and so on ad infinitum.
Even 60 mangudai have counters like say 60 huskarls. But 60 huskarls will get melted by 60 arambai and so will everything else.
And yes i mean everything else
Urumis have blast attack in their charge attack, which is quite a unique gimmick which swings melee fights to a huge degree. I would say that the Urumi gimmick is much stronger than the current Samurai gimmick.
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Of course itâs strong, Iâve said myself that it functions somewhat as a better version of the Samurai, but thatâs not the same as being well-designed. 3 âgimmicksâ in 1 is a bit much; all of them are seen on other units (even the âsplashâ functions somewhat similarly to an overtuned version of the trample damage some melee units have). And yet itâs kind of just a champion on steroids that doesnât really fill any role that the champ doesnât already, itâs just a difference of power. Urumi is in a weird place where itâs arguably OP where it can bring its melee power to bear, and yet it canât brute force its way out of being terrible vs siege and other ranged units that are the bane of all Dravidian units. So it kind of ends up as an expensive frontline unit whose impressive dps is overshadowed by itâs squishiness if your opponent has any decent ranged support. Hence why I said I rarely find cause to use it, even as a frequent Dravidians player.
They are not the worst UU really. Imo, that title goes to Teutonic knight and samurai.