Some do…
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EDIT: AW COME ON! The censor again…
Look " Fixed guns are so satisfying!!!" on YouTube (LionHeart).
1 Like
Bersagliere got some nerfs now is balance, may be, before they were disaster, but this is history.
Fixed gun is another failure like caro/hakk/inca in supremacy just copy from scenario.
I don’t know what is going to have in future DLCs but let the unit “too unique” is not fun to balance.
I wholeheartedly agree that Caroleans were a mistake and a terribly designed unit.
That they are bad and underpowered however is a new one to me.
4 Likes
I’ve been using the Swede for a long time in 1v1 matchups, but Caroline’s performance made me basically lose the game
The game’s production team just nerfed this troop too hard
some things were nerfs, some were complete overhauls of the unit. They had no idea what they were doing.
1 Like
The idea was to make a generalist unit with it’s famous melee tactics. Hence the increased range and fast melee speed etc.
They overdid it and when they had to nerf it obviously sweden underperformed against traditional skirms which in turn meant that they had to add in the crossbow which just shows off that the caroleans had to do too much.
tbh alot of those rules were already broken in the original game since the revolutionaries, ashi etc already exists.
More often its more visible that they are trying to design the unit around one unique mechanic/idea and something about the design constraint for it breaks it
This has been the case with every musk unit that is introduced
Inca - AOE and range snare musk
Mexico - Musk that is also a gren
Ethiopia - that ROF mechanic
Akan - pure aoe musk
Maigadi - just pure stat musk
For the caro to me the idea is a musk that beats range units in melee ( which is apparently their uniqueness historically) and all the changes have to be made to accomodate that
1 Like
You can say maigadi is the pop efficient musk…their stats are really bad (for the cost). Their stand out feature is 1 pop…
Then it should get rid of all the gimmicks with rof, ranged multiplier and super range.
It should in fact have shorter range and weaker range dps (this counts the rof).
I could even do with ranged defense if the purpose is to encourage melee.
Historically carolean musketeers were never a typical “line infantry” as the other European countries. They were more of a shock unit and the purpose was not to stand against cavalry. They needed to be accompanied by pikemen to deal with cavalry.
No way it becomes an all-purpose musketeer with all the musketeer roles but in range plus a melee focus.
The very first version made more sense (except the ranged counter to all cavalry), but it was too underwhelming they elevated all its aspects as a standard musketeer (instead of enhancing its identity or give Swedes other units to compensate that) while ignoring the bonus it already had. Then it became super op so everything along with Swedes’ eco is nerfed proportionally, and it became bad again.
And even after you remove all these features, it still has more uniqueness than any other unique musket you’ve listed. These units have a clear theme. Soldado is simply less than 2x musketeer in 2x pop with siege ability. Ashigaru is simply faster musketeer. Maigadi is simply pop efficient but cost inefficient musketeer. Akan is simply a musketeer with rof. Their stat, cost, abilities all synergize with that theme.
For example, Akan does not need a charge ability, and a deflection ability, and a ranged melee attack, and maybe also double armor. It just needs a ranged AOE. It then needs lower base attack because it has an AOE. Simple as it is. Nothing additional is needed and it is a very unique unit.
I can imagine a unique musketeer with:
- Higher rof and/or longer range but lower base damage
- Stronger melee but weaker range (needs higher hp like janissary, charge ability or higher speed)
- Ranged but smaller multiplier to cavalry
Any of these designs alone is unique enough.
But carolean does not even have such a theme. It is a mixture of all these themes above, a musketeer with a melee focus (and a melee multiplier against other infantry) but also high rof, super long range and ranged counter against cavalry, and then an upgrade to make it stronger at range against other heavy infantry but weaker at melee and countering cavalry.
EDIT: and this is NOT considering the fact that Swedes have leather cannon to counter infantry, regularly trained mercenaries to make up for all the units it lacks, and now a proper dragoon to counter cavalry. It makes even less sense to make carolean an all-purpose unit.
6 Likes
Revolutionaries, (Well, Colonial Militia back in the day), were an extremely gimmicky unit that you unlocked after Industrial Age if you revolted, which was a pretty useless strat in all but the most corner of cases.
I wouldn’t really use it as a precedent for anything.
Were the Inca Bolas even meant to be musks to begin with? Could swear that was some post-release bizarre balance decision.
most nerfed unit on game
They did have that when it was released , they had 10 base range and lower damage (14 with 2 rof, which still works out lower then musk) which increased with upgrades and an even faster ROF to encourage you to get up close and then melee
and the fact that their royal guard unit is the pikeman again speaks to that design of trying to make the carolean pikeman formation that swedes used to be a thing
the problem is that in this game that is not a very viable way to play and so they have had to bodge their way around the way it sucks, while still trying to keep the beating in melee part alive.
Its also clear to me atleast that they wanted the ability to do a musk cav play style right into the lategame cause lets face it before DE, all civs would devolve into skirm wars when going into the lategame and they were willing to do whatever it took to make it so that it works
They have learned from the caro, the caro is where the gameplay/ historical accuracy tradeoff is at its starkest where trying to make it more historically accurate devolves
It is a niche gimmick but if we have seen anything with DE, is that the devs are very open to taking a niche, previously useless idea and seeing how far they can run with it and lets face it alot of them were modders before this and seeing how a lot of swede comes from the napoleonic wars mod, there are a lot more niche stuff that will be leveraged.
Like im just realising now that all the outlaw and imperial merc stuff was in there as well.
yeah its almost like a lead dev made that mod
2 Likes
I really like the Carolean unique firing animations where they crouch to fire sometimes. I know it’s not really possible with how the formations and attacking works at the moment but it would have been incredible to have euro muskteers form lines when attacking and use that kneeling animation for the front row soldiers 
1 Like
If we put historical caro in the game, Haud toma shouldn’t be “range attack” like musk, they should be range “hand attack” like initial AOE3 native.
Unique shouldn’t be on top of balance. let caro same function as musk is what should be at the beginning.
There are many success stories to make a melee-focused combination, for example jaguar knight after the update.
I don’t think a similar unit with a range attack by default would be any more difficult. And Swedes also have several very good ranged options to compensate, especially after hakka became a dragoon (and hakka as a melee-focused dragoon survived well, even op for some time).
In fact now I think carolean could be simply treated as a jaguar knight with a range attack, instead of a musketeer with melee bonus against infantry.
lets not raise the spectre of another 5 speed ranged infantry unit, just the possibility of a 5 speed musk is already going to raise alarms
Of course if it is designed as a “ranged jaguar knight” it should not have the speed of a melee unit.
The current speed 4.25 is fine, and it has the charge ability.
Give it a small melee bonus against heavy cavalry (eg 1.5x) too. Also increase its melee bonus against heavy infantry to 1.5x.
Keep the range at 10 or 12. Get rid of any bonus to range and rof.
Even the range resistance swap could remain if it is more melee focused.
Considering hakka also has shorter range and high melee, Swedes could be simply given the theme of “high melee short range front line unit + efficient mass long-range artillery”. It fits the historical theme, and is very unique.
